barrel length & muzzle brakes how do they effect sound and performance?

[sbcrockett]

thanks, Ed. that was the case I was talking about. but I like your link better because of that moderators avatar. it was the first thing I saw this morning, and I must say was a very pleasant way to wake up!

[1377x]

thanks, Ed. that was the case I was talking about. but I like your link better because of that moderators avatar. it was the first thing I saw this morning, and I must say was a very pleasant way to wake up!

thats the same thing i thought when i found it
OH what do we have here!!!

[BDS]

Keep in mind that BATFE & the DOJ play by their own rules in the early stages of any investigation or arrests. Fast & Furious, David Karesh, Ruby Ridge come to mind?

Basically, it's the old French system of guilty until proven innocent. If an un-informed (or un-sympathetic) agent deems your device to be capable of being atached to a firearm, it is capable until YOU can prove otherwise. This has nothing to do with their lack of jurisdiction over airguns, and everything to do with a device being a controlled item, categorized similar to an automatic weapon, or explosive device etc. I think we overlook the fact that a device laying on your bench or in a box for that matter could be the focus of prosecution, regardless of what it was attached to recently (i.e. an airgun).

Last, we (as informed hobbyists) know that a TKO type device would not sustain more than one shot from a .22 lr let alone anything larger however, this knowledge and the makers disclaimers would be meaningless to the agencies that go after this stuff. Disclaimers such as "it's illegal to use this device except for it's intended purpose" (airguns) won't mean a thing.

BTW, I have 3 TKOs and will probably get more but, I recognize the thin line we walk and who has the odds heavily in their favor in this game of chance.

[1377x]

thats true
have you read the document?
iirc the device was not attached to the gun but it was in the same box plus the other issues that lead to the arrest
it came down to the atf had to modify it to work on a firearm thats what got the guys conviction overturned.a tko probably can reduce the report in a firearm i dont know i havent tried it and wont try it.it would need to be modified to do so then bad intent comes into play.its my understanding that even if a tko can do that as long as its not modified to fit anything other than an airgun its safe.
it makes me wonder what will happen if you have a threaded tko,they are available.that wouldnt need to be modified

[jdub]

thats true
have you read the document?
iirc the device was not attached to the gun but it was in the same box plus the other issues that lead to the arrest
it came down to the atf had to modify it to work on a firearm thats what got the guys conviction overturned.a tko probably can reduce the report in a firearm i dont know i havent tried it and wont try it.it would need to be modified to do so then bad intent comes into play.its my understanding that even if a tko can do that as long as its not modified to fit anything other than an airgun its safe.
it makes me wonder what will happen if you have a threaded tko,they are available.that wouldnt need to be modified

That's a very interesting read.  I liked the part where the gov witness said it would be possible to hold the device in your hand on the end of the barrel of a firearm while shooting with the other.  And gun owners are supposed to be the scary ones?? 

Like BDS and others I realize it's a fine line and I'm not about to do anything to provoke curiosity--like take mine out in public anywhere.  For me it's just a great way to be able to shoot at home.

I've toyed with the idea of getting a Class II license several times in order to legally obtain these things for firearms but the $200 fee kind of sticks in my throat.  Even if you have a Class II license they could nail you with these LDCs because they not serialized nor registered.

I do think after reading that article that if I sold someone an airgun with an LDC I'd pull it off and ship them in separate boxes.  Thanks again for posting the link 1377!

[D-R0CK]

BATF doesn't have any jurisdiction over airguns.   And therein lies the problem.   If it was absolutely certain that the brakes would only work on airguns there would be no issues except for whatever local ordinances exist.  The problem is the possibility of airgun brakes being used on firearms.

But they do have jurisdiction over firearms. And a supressor capable of being put on a firearm (.17 HMR would fit pretty easy...) is a firearm. I don't mean to stir the pot any more than it already has been, but on the BATF website they specifically say that there have been several convictions related to suppressing airguns, while skirting around whether they are completely illegal or only in special cases. It seems to me that the only way you will ever be prosecuted for a suppressed airgun is in connection to another crime. All of the instances in which someone was prosecuted involved some other unlawful activity. Don't sell drugs and it's pretty doubtful they'll come knocking on your door looking for your TKO LDC, just my $0.02

[jdub]

But they do have jurisdiction over firearms. And a supressor capable of being put on a firearm (.17 HMR would fit pretty easy...) is a firearm. I don't mean to stir the pot any more than it already has been, but on the BATF website they specifically say that there have been several convictions related to suppressing airguns, while skirting around whether they are completely illegal or only in special cases. It seems to me that the only way you will ever be prosecuted for a suppressed airgun is in connection to another crime. All of the instances in which someone was prosecuted involved some other unlawful activity. Don't sell drugs and it's pretty doubtful they'll come knocking on your door looking for your TKO LDC, just my $0.02

Agreed.

[1377x]

this should settle the report reducer argument
taken right from the aft website
it is for paintball guns but the definition also applys to aiguns because they are not firearms
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf

[D-R0CK]

this should get stickied

[jdub]

this should settle the report reducer argument
taken right from the aft website
it is for paintball guns but the definition also applys to aiguns because they are not firearms
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf

According to this one the guy in your first link shouldn't have been acquitted because his muffler wasn't permanently attached to his gun, right?   This one is 2005 the other is 2010.  Sounds like another one of those things where you still need a judge to make the final decision.   

[BDS]

Read and re-read those ATF "non-decisions". The paintball issue in particular is written so as to STILL allow for the removed device to be a) controlled through the $200 fed tax process and/or b) once removed, to be "tested" by the ATF for it's application to and effectiveness on a firearm PRIOR to any use.

Gotta love  those govt lawyers, bet ya at least two dozen wrote and re-wrote this jewel of a legal decision 

[KevinP]

Read and re-read those ATF "non-decisions". The paintball issue in particular is written so as to STILL allow for the removed device to be a) controlled through the $200 fed tax process and/or b) once removed, to be "tested" by the ATF for it's application to and effectiveness on a firearm PRIOR to any use.

Gotta love  those govt lawyers, bet ya at least two dozen wrote and re-wrote this jewel of a legal decision 

YEA ... and we paid for it .....  Taxes ......

[Plekto]

To me the reason why I avoid it all is because it's a huge headache of questions, paperwork, and often less than friendly legal and law enforcement people just waiting to make you need an entire bottle of Asprin.  It's kind of like having a 4X4 and deciding to drive through the swamp rather than just take the road around it.  Can it be done?  Probably.  Just expect to not get through it without some dirt and dings.

Also, since these are becoming extremely common in the last few years (aftermarket as well as OEM), it's only a matter of time before someone cracks down on them. 

To the original poster, changing the barrel length is no big deal.  $20-$30 for a replacement barrel and you're good to go.  The real solution though is to add a shroud, which is 100% legal and will simply look like a bull barrel from a distance.  They are quieter, draw less attention (can take to the range with no issues), and are a superior way to do it.  The downside is that they are expensive.

http://bnm111.hpage.co.in/crosman_2240__13553638.html
It's basically a Marauder Pistol that runs on CO2.   $250 and worth every penny, IMO.  I'm personally a fan of CO2 due to lower initial cost, and this is $250 and drop a CO2 cartridge in it.  A Marauder Pistol is close to $450-500 by the time you get a tank and/or pump and fittings.

[1377x]

there was a thread on airgun supresors over on gta
mac-1 told of his experience with the subject. he actuall sends devices to the aft for approval
i cover my arse by using permanently mounted report reducers like this one.its never coming off

[Plekto]

He uses an interference fit and is one of the few shops anywhere that does it correctly.  Basically it involves heating one item and cooling the other and fitting them together.(notmal hand tools won't usually make it fit - think heavy machinery)    It might as well be one piece of metal after it cools, since they are pressing on each other with thousands of pounds of friction and and attempt to heat one heats the other.  IIRC, he said that he spent almost a decade sending devices to to be tested before he figured out how to get it right. 

He's not cheap, but he can do it right.  Oh, there's a thread on GTA about the rifles that won Gold in the recent Olympics being loaned by him and a couple of GTA members. (including his own personal gun) Silly cutting edge barrels and regulation that simply out-shoots every other design.  Hard core American machining and technical expertise that stomped the German and Russian designs.