been off line, busy with work, the Mrs. work and life in general. Catching up on the forum, I saw a few posts that mentioned keeping the gun "stock".
So when we talk about "keeping a gun stock", what are we really talking about? If I perform a smooth lube tune on it but dont change parts.... is it still stock? If I replace a broken part with a factory identical one, is it still stock?
Where/what is the line from making an "out of the box" gun better, and the beginning of customization?
Stock = Out Of The Package
In my mind, replacing a broken part with an identical replacement part, or lubricating per the user manual still preserves the gun as 'stock'. Adding a trigger shoe or changing the grips would, I think, technically crosses over into modded gun territory.
Some refer to a customized gun as having stock internals, for example. This is no longer a stock gun, but we infer the valve and associated parts are unchanged from out of the package.
When there are CAPOF stock gun target competitions, I understand that to mean the gun is essentially right out of the package.
^^^ breakfastchef pretty much nailed it on the head.
Take it out of the package, clean it, lube it, and shoot it.
Carl
chef sez: "I understand that to mean the gun is essentially right out of the package"
Carl sez: "Take it out of the package, clean it, lube it, and shoot it."
with ya both there.... but is it still stock if I break out the sandpaper and polish the contact points of the trigger and sear? (oh and dont ferget the moly...)
Polishing the usual places in the trigger frame is still stock, as long as you're using the same sear, spring and blade etc, I would assume.
Quote from: dan_house on May 22, 2013, 11:13:31 PM
with ya both there.... but is it still stock if I break out the sandpaper and polish the contact points of the trigger and sear? (oh and dont ferget the moly...)
This is one of those eternal questions fraught with interpretation and conjecture. It can only be solved when some entity provides the definition of 'stock' for a specific purpose. It is only then defined.
A hard line response to trigger group work would be that the gun is no longer stock. A more liberal interpretation is that it is really still stock with just some minor 'under the hood' work. What camp you are in does not affect the color blue.
If we are having trouble with the def of "stock", maybe we should use the term OEM (original eqpt mfg) ? OEM in my mind would be a 1377 in the exact condition it came in, right out of the clamshell package from Crosman.
However, that def may be more restrictive than what the folks running the comps intended?
OEM, yea thats a good point.
But that just clarifies the mud that I'm about to thru in the water..... :-*
If I tear my 1377 down, polish the inside of the pump tube, polish and lube the usual trigger points, polish the bolt and the bolt raceway, polish the hammer and hammer raceway, then reassemble with the same OEM parts I took out, is it stock still? No of course not. Thats a modification....
errr what I thought would be a simple question, that I'd get a few answers in rough or relative agreement..... obvisouly isnt, and thats just in my own head :-X .
So I'm going with "stock" meaning a piece that relatively the same as a just out of the box unit, but may have some minor optimzed factory components......
Ok, I think I got it, now somebody quick change the subject ;)
When Rich and I first discussed the 2240 Box Stock Competitions I thought, as I mentioned before, take it out of the package, clean it, lube it, and shoot it. But Rich felt that you could polish the sear and trigger components but you could swap nothing or add nothing.
So as we now see it, as long as all the components remain OEM the gun is stock.
But that also lead me to the point that what if I clean up the valve. Is it still stock because the valve is the OEM valve just not in the same configuration as when it was purchased.
Therefore, I still feel that stock is take it out of the package, clean it, lube it, and shoot it.
Carl
Stock...
Very hard to nail down what the term means without getting crazy with a set of regulations. I could call it box (clamshell) stock which I'd interpret as take it out of the package, clean/lube shoot. No material may be added nor removed from any internal or external surface of the gun (and it's components). If it's not a Crosman part that came with the gun, not allowed.
???
What if your just fixing something......like a manufacturing tolerance irregularity ???
Other than the comps or whats still in a clamshell, probably not to many "stock" with this group....
See what ya started Dan ;D
Quote from: breakfastchef on May 22, 2013, 11:39:27 PM
This is one of those eternal questions fraught with interpretation and conjecture. It can only be solved when some entity provides the definition of 'stock' for a specific purpose. It is only then defined.
A hard line response to trigger group work would be that the gun is no longer stock. A more liberal interpretation is that it is really still stock with just some minor 'under the hood' work. What camp you are in does not affect the color blue.
I wonder if that, will make some see Red??!
;) :D ;D
Quote from: quickster47 on May 23, 2013, 12:31:12 AM
When Rich and I first discussed the 2240 Box Stock Competitions I thought, as I mentioned before, take it out of the package, clean it, lube it, and shoot it. But Rich felt that you could polish the sear and trigger components but you could swap nothing or add nothing.
So as we now see it, as long as all the components remain OEM the gun is stock.
But that also lead me to the point that what if I clean up the valve. Is it still stock because the valve is the OEM valve just not in the same configuration as when it was purchased.
Therefore, I still feel that stock is take it out of the package, clean it, lube it, and shoot it.
Carl
Yea, what he said. Stock is bone stock!
On a side note, the word "stock" has probably more different meanings than any other word in the English language. Especially when you consider the other spelling of the same word too ("stalk").
Stock = live-stock, gun-stock, stock-car, stock-broker, stock (in a company), stock-condition (as it left the factory or maker), take-stock (US), stock-taking (inventory time in the UK), stock-ist (authorized distributor in UK), stock (see live-stock)... ??? :-X :D
I still like OEM best... :-* ;D
Quote from: agninja on May 23, 2013, 02:41:06 PM
On a side note, the word "stock" has probably more different meanings than any other word in the English language. Especially when you consider the other spelling of the same word too ("stalk").
Hate to disagree with you but the little word "up" definitely has more meanings and usages than stock.
Carl
Lovers of the English language might enjoy this. It is yet another example of why people learning English have trouble with the language. Learning the nuances of English makes it a difficult language. (But then, that's probably true of many languages.)
There is a two-letter word in English that perhaps has more meanings than any other two-letter word, and that word is 'UP'. It is listed in the dictionary as being used as an [adv], [prep], [adj], [n] or [v].
It's easy to understand UP, meaning toward the sky or at the top of the list, but when we awaken in the morning, why do we wake UP?
At a meeting, why does a topic come UP? Why do we speak UP, and why are the officers UP for election and why is it UP to the secretary to write UP a report? We call UP our friends and we use it to brighten UP a room, polish UP the silver, we warm UP the leftovers and clean UP the kitchen. We lock UP the house and some guys fix UP the old car.
At other times the little word has a real special meaning. People stir UP trouble, line UP for tickets, work UP an appetite, and think UP excuses.
To be dressed is one thing but to be dressed UP is special.
And this up is confusing:
A drain must be opened UP because it is stopped UP.
We open UP a store in the morning but then we also close it UP at night. We seem to be pretty mixed UP about UP!
To be knowledgeable about the proper uses of UP, look the word UP in the dictionary. In a desk-sized dictionary, it takes UP almost 1/4 of the page and can add UP to about thirty definitions.
If you are UP to it, you might try building UP a list of the many ways UP is used. It will take UP a lot of your time, but if you don't give UP, you may wind UP with a hundred or more.
When it threatens to rain, we say it is clouding UP. When the sun comes out we say it is clearing UP. When it rains, it wets UP the earth. When it does not rain for awhile, things dry UP.
One could go on and on, but I'll wrap it UP, for now ... my time is UP, so time to shut UP!
Oh...one more thing:
What is the first thing you do in the morning and the last thing you do at night?
U P
Don't screw up. Now I'll shut up
Waz-up wid dat ??? ;D
Wow. That was pretty interesting, I enjoy reading things like that :-*.. I have another one about the English language that is somewhat similar but I don't want to go too far off subject from OP's thread.
OK, I avoided this thread until I had my courage up :-X
Just finished reading it so I think it may be time to add a definition to the General Rules in regards to stock for the purpose of our "Stock Only" competitions. I will add it today, but leaning on a version of this by Chongman;
Stock...
Very hard to nail down what the term means without getting crazy with a set of regulations. I could call it box (clamshell) stock which I'd interpret as take it out of the package, clean/lube shoot. No material may be added nor removed from any internal or external surface of the gun (and it's components). If it's not a Crosman part that came with the gun, not allowed.
Rich
BTW: I hate rules! The law is one thing, but rules are just one persons or a group of persons views being pressed onto others. Laws, on the other hand? Well not much better, but at least they are voted upon or served up to us by people we voted to make those decisions for us (or some such nonsense). Yeah, the radical me is coming out this morning ;)
Okay, ignorance of the law is no excuse but then ignorance is no excuse for a law.
Right now the pressure is on you Mister Supreme Court Justice of the CAPOF. Do what you feel is best for the masses.
Carl
Quote from: quickster47 on May 23, 2013, 03:44:47 PM
Okay, ignorance of the law is no excuse but then ignorance is no excuse for a law.
Right now the pressure is on you Mister Supreme Court Justice of the CAPOF. Do what you feel is best for the masses.
Carl
Geez! Gulp! ;D ;D ;D
That's why I'm a radical thinker ;)
Stock - one of those rare things that hasn't met a CAPOF member yet ;)
Seriously though I call stock as something that has no additional parts that deviate from factory specification. Not modified in any way. To me if anything is polished or altered in any way then it is not factory spec, lube that is maintenance.
This has been said by Rich before, but I think it needs to be remembered. Hardly any of us haven't at least cleaned up the trigger and put a lighter spring with guide in our new stock pistol. We all know what doing so does for making us enjoy it more, and want to actually use it.
I just think if you don't at least allow that, not many of us are going to actually have a gun to enter with. If you look at this months stock 2240 comp not to many there, even compared to the other more open competitions numbers. Isn't the goal, is to get more people to join in?
How about stock, just meaning no after market parts, and no parts from other Crosman pistols?
I would assume that there are very few completely stock 1377's and 2240's. All three of mine plus one that was returned had sights that wouldn't adjust downward enough and had to be lowered a bit. It seems like many others have the same issue with them.
This thread has diverted into two.......one being a personal view and the other the comp rules. I am about to enter the definition of "Stock" in the General Rules for competitions only.
My thinking is this thread should remain an open discussion, as to to what I think is the OP's original intent.
Rich
Quote from: WyoMan on May 23, 2013, 02:48:14 AM
See what ya started Dan ;D
Yea, ok, I apologize. I drop this seemingly simple question on everyone, then split for the desert.....
So I'm seeing some agreement, "Box stock", or with nothing else done but polish the usual points of trigger contact. I can live with that definition. But that definiton means I have _nothing_ in the shop thats "Stock"....... :-[
You... and quite a few others here ;)
If the trigger is OK to mod, then I can still pass the test ;) ;D
OT a little:
for a great read on what a mongrel the English Language is, find "Our Magnificent BAstard Tongue, The untold history of English" by John McWhorter.
After I read it, I marvel at anyone that learns English as a second language.....
And let me throw this tidbit out there....
borrowing from the perfroemcne auto/hot rod guys... they have a term"blueprint".... means to go thru yer engine and return it to the specs and tolerances called for in the original design plans (hence the term...) these specs are considerably tighter than what the prodcut that rolls off the assembly line can deliver. So if I change nothing on the gun, but "blueprint it", is it still stock (even though its well within the original factory specs)? I'm gonna say no.
The act of blueprinting it _is_ the mod, thus the gun has been modded.....
Take 100 each of every part in a 2240 that came from Crosman (spare parts) and then cherry pick out the very best for fit and finish without alteration and you would still have stock pistol. As close to b/p'ing as you can get and still stay stock.
When b/p'ing an engine, most of the internal parts are 're- manufactured or altered to as close to the mean dimensions on the blueprint as humanly possible. At least that was how we did it back in the day. Better than stock if the original engineers did their work correctly. So if you 're-made a sear, even if it was to the mean dimensions specified in the Crosman drawings, it would not be stock. That makes sense to me, how about you? ???
yep, agree 100%
But I'd have to have some one make it for me, as it would not resemble anything close what the original plans from Crosman defined...... ;)
Jumpin back in here, what was the ORIG intention of the "Stock CAPOF Match"? Can anyone remember?
It would seem natural that it may have meant anyone can play without having to "tune" or mod their guns? And, that the super tuner, 10 meter, one-hole punchers with $500 guns were not "ringers" in the mix?
If so, stock must mean.. "I just showed up on this forum with my 2240 pistol in the clamshell package from Walmart and I want to shoot in your competition". Right? Maybe?
Quote from: BDS on May 31, 2013, 11:46:26 PM
Jumpin back in here, what was the ORIG intention of the "Stock CAPOF Match"? Can anyone remember?
It would seem natural that it may have meant anyone can play without having to "tune" or mod their guns? And, that the super tuner, 10 meter, one-hole punchers with $500 guns were not "ringers" in the mix?
If so, stock must mean.. "I just showed up on this forum with my 2240 pistol in the clamshell package from Walmart and I want to shoot in your competition". Right? Maybe?
Sounds about right for the stock competitions, but the op was more or less about interpreted viewpoints. That's how I took it. Open discussion that took a turn and dragged in the comps.
Rich
Here is a "STOCK" gun. Even the screws. :-*
:)
Yep, the newbies need to know what is "STOCK". :-* :-*
Yep, looks like there is a Phoenix around here spreading his "come back to life dust" on some of these old threads ;D
I think, and I say I think cause I haven't paid attention to this for a while, but I do believe that the CAPOF definition of "stock" for the "Stock Competitions" was put in the General Rules thread. I'll chance it further by saying that we went with Carl's version of stock along with adding, that if something breaks/leaks, it can be replaced with a Crosman OEM part (example: seal).
Now that I went out on a limb, I better go see what I actually wrote 2 years ago ;)
Quote from: arkmaker on July 30, 2015, 04:27:02 AM
Yep, looks like there is a Phoenix around here spreading his "come back to life dust" on some of these old threads ;D
I think, and I say I think cause I haven't paid attention to this for a while, but I do believe that the CAPOF definition of "stock" for the "Stock Competitions" was put in the General Rules thread. I'll chance it further by saying that we went with Carl's version of stock along with adding, that if something breaks/leaks, it can be replaced with a Crosman OEM part (example: seal).
Now that I went out on a limb, I better go see what I actually wrote 2 years ago ;)
Sorry about that. I just get bored and start reading the what the guest are looking at. Then the rest is "history" :-\ :-\
On second thought, you people don't want past info brought up again? I'll just shut up like a lot of other old timers have done, bye. :P
No it's all good Duck if you want to try and get the fire going again. :-* :-* :-*
Quote from: mudduck48 on July 30, 2015, 03:07:22 AM
Yep, the newbies need to know what is "STOCK". :-* :-*
;D ;D newbies are the only ones with stock guns ...
Quote from: targettgii on July 30, 2015, 05:23:36 AM
No it's all good Duck if you want to try and get the fire going again. :-* :-* :-*
X2 All Good :-*
Been some good old threads brought back!
I'm just following your suggestion. :)
Quote from: KevinP on July 30, 2015, 02:06:13 PM
;D ;D newbies are the only ones with stock guns ...
Not so. My 2240 is STILL Stock (out of the package), no mods, polishing, etc.
The good that came out of this rez was a reminder that I need some new screws for my 1377. :-*
and that "I Need A New Box Stock 2240" They shoot remarkably well right out if the clam-shell, well after I straighten up the front site! (IMHO)
Duckster - keep on pulling these good old threads up............ I enjoy them :-*