I finally had a chance to shoot the 2289 that I got from Walmart. It was $75 for the Doomsday bug out kit. Right after I ordered the gun I immediately ordered the steel breech from Crosman and a scope from PA. When I received it yesterday I dry fired it and ordered the muzzle brake from TKO. Today I found time to actually fire the bare gun.
The 2289 seems to be very accurate right out of the box. The plastic sights are crap but they will be replaced with a scope soon anyway. It needs trigger work but I knew that would be the case. Pumping 10 times while target shooting is a drag especially when it's hot (it was 100 degrees today). I'm thinking I'll use 5 pumps for target and 10 when I feel like I need it.
Some questions: I want a better trigger, what's the best fix? How do you remove the front sight? I'm still looking for the best pellet, I'm working on that. What about the flat top piston/valve? Is that a worthwhile conversion?
I'm willing to spend another $50 on this thing. I probably should have bought a Marurder in the first place!
Thanks!
Put a wooden block against front sight and just tap it off with a hammer.
You'll love the TKO. It's super quiet.
Take off hand grips and polish up all contact points on trigger. A trigger shoe is nice also.
Have fun!!!
I'm willing to spend another $50 on this thing. I probably should have bought a Marurder in the first place!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D and LOL. I started out with a 1322 and now have over $300 into it and no FT valve. You are going to spend over $50 just for a flat top valve. I took my sons 2289G, just changed the trigger spring and the trigger pull went from over 6lbs to just over 3 1/2lbs. IMO, I would leave the gun alone and just shoot it. My sons gun likes the Crosman Premier HP.
For the trigger, the easy and free thing to do is to take off the stock and remove the spring you see, overcompress it in your fingers or in pliers a little at a time until it has about 1/8" of preload when installed without the gun cocked. This will make the trigger MUCH nicer. Some people cut the spring shorter, but I prefer this method...
Quote from: mudduck48 on August 19, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
I started out with a 1322 and now have over $300 into it and no FT valve.
Mr. MudDuck48, I've seen other posts where you make this comment. I'm having a hard time seeing where the $300 went. I know that California is expensive but still...$300? I'm not saying that you didn't spend what you have said, but there must be a lot goin' on inside of that gun ???
I'd just like to know ;).
Flex
Great gun I love mine super accurate.
Mike
$50 is a limiting factor. Decide what you want from your air gun and figure out where to best spend the money.
A trigger job involving polishing contact points, shimming out some side-to-side play in the components, lightening the sear spring and using appropriate lubes will render the trigger acceptable. If you want an excellent trigger, then consider replacing the existing grip frame and trigger group with a two-stage setup from a Crosman 1701P. This change will require a simple modification to the hammer. Cost is @$50 last time I priced out the parts. Good thing is your trigger frame may net up to $40 on an airgun classfieds.
You want power? Adjustable flat top piston and flat top valve is the plug-and-play way to go. You can save a few bucks by flat topping your existing valve and doing a few simple modifications. If you do your own valve work, a piston can likely be had for @$30.
If you want to max out the existing valve and piston, you can achieve similar velocities as with a flat top setup. There is a lot of dis-assembly and testing to make that happen. A chronograph is pretty much a necessity in order to track the changes you make. Work involves stuffing the piston, shimming and pinning the pump cup, and some valve work. If you choose to go this route, get a replacement pivot pin that can be easily removed for when you have to tear the gun apart.
Another good thing to consider is an extended probe or flow-through bolt. Each set the pellet beyond the transfer port and will yield a small bump to consistency and fps.
Here are a few documents to read through. Some of the information may be out-dated or not applicable to you, but the general principles are still valid.
http://www.mp661k.com/sitedocs/13xx_HotRod.pdf (http://www.mp661k.com/sitedocs/13xx_HotRod.pdf)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1186970064/modding+the+1377+for+New-Bees (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1186970064/modding+the+1377+for+New-Bees)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/1377-project-trigger-job.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/1377-project-trigger-job.html)
http://www.airgunartisans.com/AABiohazardTunes.htm (http://www.airgunartisans.com/AABiohazardTunes.htm)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n3ro6yphs4ql2l4/orhYCuIPBw/Crosman%202289%20mods.pdf (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n3ro6yphs4ql2l4/orhYCuIPBw/Crosman%202289%20mods.pdf)
http://www.network54.com/Realm/CFTech/CFTech.htm (http://www.network54.com/Realm/CFTech/CFTech.htm)
I disassembled the trigger and polished the contact points. I also lightened the spring. It's stock length was 1.34" now it's 1.20. I didn't lubricant the trigger as it wasn't lubed before. Maybe I should?
I managed to loose the safety spring ball bearing so I completely removed the assembly.
The trigger is light and very nice now. :-*
No need for any power mods as I can see a Marurder in my future. ;)
Marauders are nice :), I treated myself to one a bit over a year ago and it is pretty sweet... I've taken starlings, dove, nutria and a couple shots at gophers (might have hit one...) with it and it is very consistent, quiet tack driver...
Just a note, watch HERE (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/) for refurbished units, the old style like mine went for $325 shipped, he threw in a refurbished hand pump for another $100. A note, hand pumping one of these is a workout...
I do like pumpers too, I have several of all the types of airguns... PCP is just easier until you have to pump them back up...
Quote from: Blackdog on August 19, 2014, 09:07:25 PM
The trigger is light and very nice now. :-*
After making changes to the trigger group, it is a very good idea to bump test the gun to make sure it will not fire if dropped or bumped. triggers can be lightened too much and create an unsafe situation.
Quote from: Flex on August 19, 2014, 08:28:37 PM
Mr. MudDuck48, I've seen other posts where you make this comment. I'm having a hard time seeing where the $300 went. I know that California is expensive but still...$300? I'm not saying that you didn't spend what you have said, but there must be a lot goin' on inside of that gun ???
I'd just like to know ;).
Flex
I built this gun over a year ago and I've slept since then.
2289 barrel off ebay. $38 14 1/2"
Blue fork barrel band. $50
Williams rear sight. $45
William rear sight insert.$18
Steel breech $48
Davio SS bolt $20
Brass bolt handle $20
1399 stock $25
screws & springs $10
Crosman forearm $13
Crosman 1322 phase II $40
That is aprox. $327.00
The 1322 phase II I bought for parts. I used the brass valve, stronger piston, the grip frame assembly and the solid steel front pivot pin. There is not much left on the original 1322, most of the parts have been changed.
That is how come I say over $300 in my 1322 Phase III.
Here is a custom build that will go to its home tomorrow. It is all tricked out and passed $300 long before completion. This weighs only 2 pounds 14 ounces, flat top valve and piston, boss buddy port, stainless roll pin replacement, sear spring adjuster, aluminum powder coated wire frame, aluminum breech, our super quiet 3D printed shusher, 14.5" barrel, extended probe, trigger shoe, etc. etc. It just adds up.
I found a fix for the short stock. It's a Limbsaver recoil pad size small. It's 1" thick. Works good so far.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Merrell/e7472bc9ac34b920d17b83aaf16c36a8_zps6248739e.jpg)
Short stock? You must have a long LOP. The standard stock in over 15". Good find for you. :-\
Op sounds like he's already tired of this gun and sees its limitations, and he just got it. ??? :D ;)
If you aren't concerned with giving it another 75 fps with the flat top mod, then take that $50 and put it into a metal barrel band. The trigger mods are mostly free, which is nice. But accuracy and power mods will certainly cost you. The well known secret about modding Crosman guns is GETTING RID OF AS MANY OF THE STOCK PLASTIC PARTS AS POSSIBLE.
It's easy to hit the $300 mark on these with the standard array of mods. I mean, steel breech, barrel band, muzzle brake, scope rings, scope, flat top valve and piston, solid roll pin, extended bolt probe. And let's not even talk about cosmetic mods...
No, not tired to the gun, it has been fun fixing it up and the mods I made will make it enjoyable to shoot. I think I spent my money in the right places. Like many of us have done I have spent a fast $250 on a $50 gun. Enough is enough. I'll play with this for a while I'm planning my next build, which will most likely be a Marauder.
However, a steel barrel band sounds good, where did you get yours?
So, you are having fun spending money... that's what this hobby does for us :-*
Quote from: mudduck48 on August 19, 2014, 11:03:36 PM
I built this gun over a year ago and I've slept since then.
2289 barrel off ebay. $38 14 1/2"
Blue fork barrel band. $50
Williams rear sight. $45
William rear sight insert.$18
Steel breech $48
Davio SS bolt $20
Brass bolt handle $20
1399 stock $25
screws & springs $10
Crosman forearm $13
Crosman 1322 phase II $40
That is aprox. $327.00
The 1322 phase II I bought for parts. I used the brass valve, stronger piston, the grip frame assembly and the solid steel front pivot pin. There is not much left on the original 1322, most of the parts have been changed.
That is how come I say over $300 in my 1322 Phase III.
Well, I guess that explains THAT! Apparently I'm not ready to "run with the big dogs" ;) Maybe someday tho :-*.
Flex
That's funny you should say "can't run with the big dogs". That is what I call my gun, "big dog". You can do it, Just don't try to do it all a once. Start out slow. Get you a gun to use as a platform, then do a trigger job. On the new guns you do not have to change the parts just smooth them up. Find people selling parts. Take your time, you'll get there and have fun doing it. ;) ;)
I just installed the steel breech and scope. It has certainly added some "heft" to the rig. The TKO muzzle brake should be here any day. I'm very impressed with the Leapers scope with the MilDot and AO. I shot it a few times at 10 yards and it grouped very well. This will be a fun little gun to have around especially since I'm selling the farm and moving into the city. What steel barrel band are you guys using?
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Merrell/db4e13a6701516eef461559044410e28_zpse6da6c48.jpg)
Michael Chavka barrel bands... Just google Chavka :-*
Another option is HPASports.
http://www.hpasports.com/pages/product-catalog/13xx_2289?previous_url_id=1 (http://www.hpasports.com/pages/product-catalog/13xx_2289?previous_url_id=1)
Quote from: BDS on August 20, 2014, 02:40:47 PM
So, you are having fun spending money... that's what this hobby does for us :-*
Hobby, Hobby, she who cooks the meals calls it an addiction, not so is it?
Quote from: Blackdog on August 20, 2014, 02:10:56 AM
I found a fix for the short stock. It's a Limbsaver recoil pad size small. It's 1" thick. Works good so far.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Merrell/e7472bc9ac34b920d17b83aaf16c36a8_zps6248739e.jpg)
Great idea! After I saw this post, I put a LimbSaver buttstock pad that I had laying around on my 2240 mod. I needed to get a little more length to get the proper eye relief for a pistol scope that I mounted on it.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g362/topgas1/Air%20Guns/Air%20Pistols/DSCN5766.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/topgas1/media/Air%20Guns/Air%20Pistols/DSCN5766.jpg.html)
It worked out nicely. Thanks for posting your tip. :-*
Flex
Quote from: Davio on August 20, 2014, 12:09:55 AM
Here is a custom build that will go to its home tomorrow.
Nice looking gun. I'd like to put a grip sleeve on my Marauder. Where can I get one like that?
Nice looking build Flex. :-*
Quote from: Tater on August 24, 2014, 09:24:53 AM
Nice looking build Flex. :-*
X2! Is that a little piece of carbon fiber tube I see between end of breech and barrel band? Nice touch filling in that void...looks nice 'n clean :-* :-*
@ Blackdog: I know it's easy for me to say when it's someone else's money ;), but don't even bother trying to keep tabs on how much your build costs...it will drive you (and especially the Missus) around the bend! :-X. Just build it to suit your needs/wants/desires and don't look back...it's the only way to survive this addiction! ;D. As Mudduck said - don't try and do everything at once. Take your time and enjoy the ride... :-*
I sighted it in at 10 yards and I'm getting groups a little more that an inch. I love the scope, I have all the parallax dialed out at that distance. I was thinking of giving Crosman a call to see what the price is on a 14.5 barrel. It's only money right? Have any of you thought of using that hollow space in the stock for storage? Maybe a small tin of pellets? Still haven't received the silenced.
Quote from: Blackdog on August 25, 2014, 03:58:45 AM
Have any of you thought of using that hollow space in the stock for storage? Maybe a small tin of pellets? Still haven't received the silenced.
http://youtu.be/nP1G12ff1oU (http://youtu.be/nP1G12ff1oU)
Quote from: agninja on August 25, 2014, 05:27:31 AM
Quote from: Blackdog on August 25, 2014, 03:58:45 AM
Have any of you thought of using that hollow space in the stock for storage? Maybe a small tin of pellets? Still haven't received the silenced.
Yes, I've thought about it.
http://youtu.be/bptuAyrocdQ (http://youtu.be/bptuAyrocdQ)
That really is a slick idea for in the stock storage :)
I'm working on a more robust system that will allow for water proof storage. Something that will withstand the battlefield in any condition. Jungle, desert, urban warfare, amphibious assault, room to room, you name it.
Quote from: Blackdog on August 25, 2014, 05:49:30 AM
I'm working on a more robust system that will allow for water proof storage. Something that will withstand the battlefield in any condition. Jungle, desert, urban warfare, amphibious assault, room to room, you name it.
I use a special waterproof pellet so I don't have to worry about that. :D
I just installed the (very effective) TKO muzzle brake. This completes this project....for now! :-*
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Merrell/872d0a8b71dacafc3e53c6376bc8dd05_zps71b68a35.jpg)
That came out great Blackdog. Looking good. :-*
Quote from: Tater on August 26, 2014, 06:37:18 AM
That came out great Blackdog. Looking good. :-*
Thanks! It's been a fun little project. I almost ordered the 14.5 barrel but with the muzzle brake I think the 12" is fine. I'm still looking for a sling and a way to mount a mag light, then I'll be done, really.
That came out great Blackdog. :-* :-* :-*
"Dog"... nice work on your gun, go to Amazon or Ebay or others for this type of mount for your flashlight. None of them should be more than $10 so, watch Ebay as always for their "ripping-off sound" :D
I saw a mount almost exactly like that at Academy Sports by Charlotte NC. Just down the road from Bass Pro Shop. They wanted around $20.
Quote from: sshewins on August 28, 2014, 02:04:38 AM
I saw a mount almost exactly like that at Academy Sports by Charlotte NC. Just down the road from Bass Pro Shop. They wanted around $20.
Ya, no bargain there, the pic I posted was $8.95 on Amazon.
:-* :-* :-*
Quote from: Blackdog on August 26, 2014, 06:46:10 AM
Thanks! It's been a fun little project. I almost ordered the 14.5 barrel but with the muzzle brake I think the 12" is fine. I'm still looking for a sling and a way to mount a mag light, then I'll be done, really.
Nice Blackdog. My 1322 build will be a twin. I just need my steel breech (left handed) and I am going to put my TKO from my Disco on it. I am getting an AC Customs shroud for my Disco (thought I'd give his a try).
Quote from: Monkeydad1969 on August 29, 2014, 03:35:32 AM
Nice Blackdog. My 1322 build will be a twin. I just need my steel breech (left handed) and I am going to put my TKO from my Disco on it. I am getting an AC Customs shroud for my Disco (thought I'd give his a try).
Please do post your thoughts after trying both on same gun.
Will do Jerry.
Quote from: Blackdog on August 26, 2014, 06:46:10 AM
Thanks! It's been a fun little project. I almost ordered the 14.5 barrel but with the muzzle brake I think the 12" is fine. I'm still looking for a sling and a way to mount a mag light, then I'll be done, really.
(http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/DARKHORSE1967/IMG_2982_zps5d514ee0.jpg) (http://s709.photobucket.com/user/DARKHORSE1967/media/IMG_2982_zps5d514ee0.jpg.html)
(http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/DARKHORSE1967/IMG_2986_zpsbb3db25f.jpg) (http://s709.photobucket.com/user/DARKHORSE1967/media/IMG_2986_zpsbb3db25f.jpg.html)
I do not have a TKO..Mine are Weirauch, UK Neil and MWSS all delrin "muzzlebrakes" from the UK
(http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/DARKHORSE1967/IMG_2984_zps7ba3c921.jpg) (http://s709.photobucket.com/user/DARKHORSE1967/media/IMG_2984_zps7ba3c921.jpg.html)
(//)
That is looking good for sure :)
Bill :)
I finally got a chance to do some serious shooting. What pellets do you guys perfer for targets? I've been using Premier Ultra Magnum (14.3 grams) with good results but maybe there's something better. What distance are you shooting at for target work? I've been shooting at 10 yards. I'll post some pictures of my groups tomorrow so you can tell me how I'm doing.
I found that shooting with 5 pumps would produce an occasional flyer. I than started shooting with 10 pumps and the groups tightened considerably. Here's my target shot at 30 feet. The center group was 7/8" (I forgot to mark it). All shooting was done with Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum ammo. Does this seem like reasonable accuracy to you?
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Merrell/b00feecd8bd10a3da90a4e8e58679db7_zpsdcde0787.jpg)
I can see now that the full 10 pumps is the way to go.
Quote from: Blackdog on September 05, 2014, 05:52:52 PM
I found that shooting with 5 pumps would produce an occasional flyer. I than started shooting with 10 pumps and the groups tightened considerably. Here's my target shot at 30 feet. The center group was 7/8" (I forgot to mark it). All shooting was done with Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum ammo. Does this seem like reasonable accuracy to you?
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Merrell/b00feecd8bd10a3da90a4e8e58679db7_zpsdcde0787.jpg)
I can see now that the full 10 pumps is the way to go.
It's a good start but... at 10 meters (33 feet) I would expect 1/2" groups max, preferably 3/8" or approx 1-1/2 pellet diameter for 5 shots. I can do this fairly consistently
on a bench at 10 meters with my 2289 with stock "peep" sight, CP round nose (out of the can, no high-end brown box stuff) and the only mods to the gun are the FO front sight, trigger mods and a polished crown on the barrel. This is all at 4 pumps. Are you starting on a bench with as static as possible set-up? Otherwise, the shooter/human element can't be discounted or dismissed and you won't know the gun's true potential.
Static who do what? That's why. Here is my bench rest. 4x6 block with a shot bag full of rags. 2x4 with wash rags. 2 plastic horses with plywood on top.
Quote from: Flex on August 21, 2014, 04:40:44 PM
Well, I guess that explains THAT! Apparently I'm not ready to "run with the big dogs" ;) Maybe someday tho :-*.
Flex
I know what your saying but you want stay that way long ! :D I got well over 400.00 in this one! I know its not a backpacker but you can send as much as you want to on these thing and more that you thought you would LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: BDS on September 05, 2014, 11:30:32 PM
It's a good start but... at 10 meters (33 feet) I would expect 1/2" groups max, preferably 3/8" or approx 1-1/2 pellet diameter for 5 shots. I can do this fairly consistently on a bench at 10 meters with my 2289 with stock "peep" sight, CP round nose (out of the can, no high-end brown box stuff) and the only mods to the gun are the FO front sight, trigger mods and a polished crown on the barrel. This is all at 4 pumps. Are you starting on a bench with as static as possible set-up? Otherwise, the shooter/human element can't be discounted or dismissed and you won't know the gun's true potential.
Good info. I'm shooting fron a rest (pillow on top of a bar stool). I'm thinking my breech screws might be a little loose. I don't have the correct allen wrenches with me now but I'll tighten them up Monday and give it another go. I wasn't sure what these things were capable of accuracy wise. I'll keep working on it. Also, the number of pumps have no affect on accuracy? How many pumps are you using just for target shooting? I'd much rather do 4 than 10.
4 pumps at 10 meters for paper punching is just right. I use 8 to shoot steel silhouettes at 20 meters and the backpacker is still accurate. Crosman did something right with these guns, not sure what they did but, almost every owner raves about accuracy :-*
Quote from: BDS on September 07, 2014, 03:53:11 AM
4 pumps at 10 meters for paper punching is just right. I use 8 to shoot steel silhouettes at 20 meters and the backpacker is still accurate. Crosman did something right with these guns, not sure what they did but, almost every owner raves about accuracy :-*
What kind of groups are you getting ar 20 meters? Is 10 meters kind of the standard distance for air guns?
10 meters is the standard for Olympic airgun paper targets in .177 caliber, it's 33 feet and just easy to remember.
At 20 meters from a bench rest, I can easily keep the groups in .50" to .60" if I do my part. The "my part" is the stuff you have to work on like trigger control, breathing etc.
Here's an example of a very average shooter's 10 meter pistol target, standing, free-hand. The Olympic guys can put all their shots into the tiny 10 and 9 rings... easily :D
Nice shooting Brian ....
I Tightened the screws and cleaned the bore. I sat done at a shooting bench and gave it another try. I first shot Primier ultra magnums. I got ok groups with an occasional flyer that ruined the groups and opened them up to close to an inch sometimes more. I was disappointed. A few days ago I bought the Benjamin pellet assortment. I shot the pointed expanding point and the groups tightened considerably, I even got some 1/2" groups. Still got a very occasional flyer. I felt I made some headway.
Questions: what pellets produce the best accuracy in the 2289? What causes the fliers? I know I was dead on when I pulled the trigger but still get theses. I thought the ultra magnums were the go to pellet but I never got good groups with them. Thanks for your time.
Quote from: Blackdog on September 13, 2014, 04:16:17 AM
I Tightened the screws and cleaned the bore. I sat done at a shooting bench and gave it another try. I first shot Primier ultra magnums. I got ok groups with an occasional flyer that ruined the groups and opened them up to close to an inch sometimes more. I was disappointed. A few days ago I bought the Benjamin pellet assortment. I shot the pointed expanding point and the groups tightened considerably, I even got some 1/2" groups. Still got a very occasional flyer. I felt I made some headway.
Questions: what pellets produce the best accuracy in the 2289? What causes the fliers? I know I was dead on when I pulled the trigger but still get theses. I thought the ultra magnums were the go to pellet but I never got good groups with them. Thanks for your time.
Have you tried 14g JSBs?
I did a half ass search and did not see 14g JSB's. I'm gunning for consistent accuracy at this time. I shot a few times with the Benjamin variety pack and they all were better than the Primier ultra magnums. I can get an occasional 1/2" group at 33ft but not always. I have an irrigation pond at my place. I like shooting at a bobbing apple at 30 yards or so using my mil dot. I'm looking for the best barrel band I can find at this time.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/JSB_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Express_22_Cal_14_3_Grains_Domed_500ct/421 (http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/JSB_Diabolo_Exact_Jumbo_Express_22_Cal_14_3_Grains_Domed_500ct/421)
I dunno why but all my Crosmans do not like Crosman pellets..They all like a particular brand of local pellets known as Eagleheads and Hammerheads and JSBs and Air Arms too but H & Ns are no good at least on my guns..Odd because my guns like the JSB/Air Arms heavies particularly the 10.34g
My 1377 in action..Sorry mine are all in .177 caliber..
(http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/DARKHORSE1967/IMG_2380_zps7ded6591.jpg) (http://s709.photobucket.com/user/DARKHORSE1967/media/IMG_2380_zps7ded6591.jpg.html)
It is free floated..
(http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/DARKHORSE1967/IMG_1045_zpsf8c6a910.jpg) (http://s709.photobucket.com/user/DARKHORSE1967/media/IMG_1045_zpsf8c6a910.jpg.html)
(http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww96/DARKHORSE1967/IMG_0841_zps5a730748.jpg) (http://s709.photobucket.com/user/DARKHORSE1967/media/IMG_0841_zps5a730748.jpg.html)
Thanks, I'll order some JSB's.
Kindly check out this thread...We are talking about a .177 though but still a Crosman..
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,13470.0.html (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,13470.0.html)
Quote from: Blackdog on September 15, 2014, 06:14:05 AM
Thanks, I'll order some JSB's.
I shoot the Crosman Round Nose .22's from the can or... for paper punching, the RWS Hobby .22 Wadcutters, both group 1/2" or less out to 25 meters