Hi All,
I decided to leave my custom shop 1322 intact, and instead do a separate build of a backpacker-on-the-cheap. Got a P1322 which looks a bit more "backpack-able" with the 10" barrel.. While I am waiting for parts, I chronied it completely stock:
3 pumps = 320fps (exactly as my custom shop one)
5 pumps = 400fps (CCS is 420)
10 pumps = 500fps (CCS is 540)
15 pumps = 560fps (CCS is 600)
ETA: so the formula for extra barrel length FPS gain works! the stock gun is exactly 40fps lower than the one with a 14" barrel on full power
I am waiting for Mellonair's FT valve and piston + a long probe) and Alchemy's fiber optic front sight. I am not going to install the steel breech due to budget constraints. With all honesty, the stock breech and rear sight are perfectly fine to me.
On thing I noticed with the retail P1322 is that the front sight is just a little loose side-to-side. Will see how the fiber optic behaves, I realize this is probably due to the barrel not being fixed in the breech.
Will update with the build process and results when done
(http://i.imgur.com/uLRTuc6.jpg?2)
(http://i.imgur.com/drOoyhj.jpg?2)
Nice twins 8)
Quote from: temchik on January 30, 2017, 05:10:23 PM
ETA: so the formula for extra barrel length FPS gain works! the stock gun is exactly 40fps lower than the one with a 14" barrel on full power
That totally jives with the ol' rule on gaining FPS with a longer barrel: Each inch will enable you to gain 10 FPS (diminishing returns with extreme lengths, of course).
Seeing your post makes me want to go out to shoot and play with my toys. :-*
Aren't we enablers here? :)
Quote from: Noah on January 30, 2017, 09:24:22 PM
That totally jives with the ol' rule on gaining FPS with a longer barrel: Each inch will enable you to gain 10 FPS (diminishing returns with extreme lengths, of course).
Seeing your post makes me want to go out to shoot and play with my toys. :-*
Personally I would add these to both of your guns. You WILL notice the difference.
http://mellonair.myfreesites.net/solid-pins
Alchemy (Davios) barrel bands also do a great job in keeping the barrel from moving while pumping. You can also drill & tap a set screw in the plastic breech. It doesn't hold the barrel as well as the steel breech but, every little bit helps. He also has better looking solid pins and if going with those you can also get the bushing & reinforcing ring from Mellon. I have used his bushings & reinforcing rings on all my Crosman & some Benjamin pump guns.
Just a few more places to spend your $. However, the return is better than just bling. ;)
Yes, I have them on order as well, just didn't mention
Quote from: temchik on January 30, 2017, 05:10:23 PM
With all honesty, the stock breech and rear sight are perfectly fine to me.
I can dig it. I upgraded my 1322 to long steel breech and Williams peep sight, and to tell you the honest-to-goodness truth? I almost miss the stock peep sight, and I kind of wish I'd have kept the stock plastic breech just to see how it held up over time. Whatever, there's no question about it, I absolutely loved the peep sight right out of the box.
Well, the Williams peep is great and sturdy, it's just a $100 upgrade (breech+sight) to an $80 gun is all...
( it's just a_ $100 upgrade (breech+sight) to an $80 gun is all...)
[/quote]
That's not bad! I know there are guys on here Me included that have WAY more that that on guns that cost less! ;D ;D ;D ;D Once that BUG as bitten you there IS NO KNOW cure for it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Welcome to the world of air gun mods. :-*
Quote from: temchik on February 01, 2017, 03:43:18 AM
Well, the Williams peep is great and sturdy, it's just a $100 upgrade (breech+sight) to an $80 gun is all...
Ya but, now it is not an $80 gun. The upgrades are for function not just bling.
Now the Stainless Steel & Brass parts, while they could also be for function, are more for bling. Gotta admit that the bling does attract me. 8)
Quote from: BillK on February 01, 2017, 06:40:40 AM
Ya but, now it is not an $80 gun. The upgrades are for function not just bling.
Now the Stainless Steel & Brass parts, while they could also be for function, are more for bling. Gotta admit that the bling does attract me. 8)
:-* :-* :-*
Like fish and crows....we do like shiny things. :-*
(http://janacraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Smeagol-My-Precious-Funny-Shoes.jpg)
Al
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
All right, all...
I installed the new valve and piston and it's leaking... Pump - and there's hissing from the transfer port........ did I do something wrong? help!!!
Could be a few things, but you are going to have to open up the valve and take a looksie. Look for the o-ring being torn and then look for crap inside the valve itself. Sometimes a piece of metal gets pushed in there when machining the face. Clean everything in there and wipe out with q-tips. Put it all back togeter and try it.
Also, I know this is probably not it, but make sure the short side of the TP is in the valve and the long side up into the barrel.
:-*
before taking it back apart, try cocking the hammer first before pumping... if that doesn't work there's probably something small on the exhaust valve seal
Ok, it was leaking from the front, not the transfer port... I opened it, there's some metal debris in there, cleaned it, lubed the seals... Still leaking.... Quickly pumped several times and fired, bam! not leaking anymore... whatever was obstructing the check valve is now gone, I suppose
All right. The proof is in the pudding:
3 pumps = 300fps
5 pumps = 390fps
10 pumps = 490fps
It seems I *lost* 10fps full power and 20fps on 3 pumps compared to the stock valve. Yes, I adjusted the piston without the seal to make sure it is touching the valve face without the arm closing (about an inch off the tube).
This is... well... disappointing at bit... I thought that an FT valve is going to improve pump efficiency, maybe not by much, but still... To see ZERO improvement...
So I adjusted and readjusted the piston and re-chronied it about 10 times now. No Change whatsoever...
Same transfer port, same probe, same type and weight of pellets? Anything restricting the flow between the valve port and the barrel? Whatever freed up so you can make a seal might have gotten stuck in the TP or valve outlet port. Don't know without seeing, just saying what I would check.
I think MA valve outlet is drilled out a bit, long probe, same port and pellets.
Am I supposed to see any improvements at all?
ETA: well. I see one improvement, I can now pump to 16 pumps and still dump all air, but I was really expecting more efficient pumping, given that the valve is unmodified inside
As has been said before, all guns are different. (could be the difference in valve/hammer spring tolerances)
The same mods offer different results.
As there was some derbies in the valve it could easily comprised the Orings on the valve &/or piston.
Be sure to debure the air tube so the new Orings are not scored. (remove the valve & hammer to do the deburing & clean tube thoroughly)
Deburing is done by using fine grip sandpaper on a dowel and smoothing the edges (all of them) in the air tube. Starting at the open and finishing at the pump tube pump arm opening.
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367
These are the Orings I use. 70 Duro for the piston and 90 Duro for the valve. Urethane (white) type for each. You can't get much better.
There is a thread on here that shows what someone did to get his pumper set up for minimum pumps (I think it was 3-4) and shooting speeds for 10M target. If that is what you are after, then that post might be of help long term. I will try to find it and post the link.
Rich
EDIT: Here is the link.......
https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,4088.msg40044.html (https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,4088.msg40044.html)
Also, take a look at WyoMan's Stickies in the pumper section for even more ideas
I de-burred everything prior to doing any work. Re-inspected all seals again, all look good, I actually have 70d and 90d urethane spares somewhere..
Quote from: BillK link=topic=17287.msg223784#msg223784
date=1486010986
As has been said before, all guns are different. (could be the difference in valve/hammer spring tolerances)
The same mods offer different results.
As there was some derbies in the valve it could easily comprised the Orings on the valve &/or piston.
Be sure to debure the air tube so the new Orings are not scored. (remove the valve & hammer to do the deburing & clean tube thoroughly)
Deburing is done by using fine grip sandpaper on a dowel and smoothing the edges (all of them) in the air tube. Starting at the open and finishing at the pump tube pump arm opening.
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367
These are the Orings I use. 70 Duro for the piston and 90 Duro for the valve. Urethane (white) type for each. You can't get much better.
Thank you, I guess I was working under false assumptions that an FT setup is more efficient than the stock one. At least the piston is more rigid, and there is no cup seal so it will last longer.
Pumping is quite a bit harder though for some reason
Quote from: arkmaker on February 02, 2017, 11:58:14 AM
There is a thread on here that shows what someone did to get his pumper set up for minimum pumps (I think it was 3-4) and shooting speeds for 10M target. If that is what you are after, then that post might be of help long term. I will try to find it and post the link.
Rich
EDIT: Here is the link.......
https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,4088.msg40044.html (https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,4088.msg40044.html)
Also, take a look at WyoMan's Stickies in the pumper section for even more ideas
Normally, I think that assumption is correct. There are so many little things that can change all of it. Keep working on it. Search is your friend on the CAPOF. If it can be done, chances are pretty good that someone has done it and written about it here.
A couple of years back, I built a pumper for my friend. Made him a brass flat top piston, hogged out the valve with all the trimmings and I ended up showing great results. I just finished up one a couple of weeks ago and the results are not as good. A bit disappointing to be honest. I will wait until I have the pateince to dive back in to it. It will bring a smile to my face yet! ;)
I have a 1322 carbine with FTP and Boss Buddy. The valve has a 90D o-ring and I first had a 70D on the piston but changed it to a 90D. Not much if any difference with either - I think it pumps smoother with the FTP. I am however disappointed with the performance - not getting 600 fps. I do have the disadvantage of 5835 ft elevation, but perhaps the limit of the elevation and 14 inch barrel have been reached.
I highly recommend the three-part sticky by WyoMan. My 1322 has all his recommendations and I have also installed two side pins to the valve. This last because of the following very interesting read:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77463.0
Yes, I saw this thread and that's what I based my assumptions on. BUT.. My stock piston looks a little different than anything I find on the internet, it is possible that Crosman had redesigned it and reduced the headspace on new pistons making it much closer in performance at recommended number of pumps with any aftermarket piston/valves.
(http://i.imgur.com/vQBZY8X.jpg?1)
Notice, there's no cup pin and the piston looks like one-piece without any sections.
Also want to share a couple of things:
Mellonair main pin nuts are pretty big, had to sand down the end of the pump arm. Also, the pin holes on the tube are not exactly 3/16", so they had to be drilled out a bit and cleaned
(http://i.imgur.com/EbZBGCW.jpg?1)
And I sanded down the stock, it's a bit more comfortable now, but it's still too shallow... I am thinking of grinding down the bottom part and filling it with something:
(http://i.imgur.com/k3VRYgY.jpg)
Crosman did upgrade the piston and the barrel band / pump pivot rigidity along with the cosmetic upgrades on the new version.
Ok, I found the culprit of the 20fps loss... Drumroll.... it's the extended probe! Put the stock probe in and re-gained it back to stock performance. I think I can explain the physics of it, correct me if I'm wrong:
Extended probe creates a larger chamber and, while it is good for CO2 to create more room to expand, it is detrimental to HPA because it now needs to pressurize more volume in the chamber. You can dump more air, but you are loosing performance at the same pressure level compared to the shorter probe
ETA: so... effectively, I probably added to the longevity of the gun by installing the FT piston/valve and the solid pin, but, honestly, unless you routinely pump beyond 10 pumps I see ZERO reason to upgrade stock parts. If anything else, stuffing the piston will give your better performance at stock number of pumps (I just tried putting about 1/2" RG59 cable piece inside the valve spring and gained about 25fps at all levels. I took it out for now, will find a nylon rod instead)
Received Alchemy Fiber Optic front sight and A.C. trigger spring with guide. The gun is ready
(http://i.imgur.com/Cmn44MR.jpg?1)
Click onto this link and look at what WyoMan done to his valve. He's one of the best at getting power out of a pumper.
https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,11146.0.html
Maybe this will help you out. I have done the same tings to my 1322 before I went to the DARK SIDE !!
Quote from: temchik on February 02, 2017, 05:38:21 PM
Ok, I found the culprit of the 20fps loss... Drumroll.... it's the extended probe! Put the stock probe in and re-gained it back to stock performance. I think I can explain the physics of it, correct me if I'm wrong:
Extended probe creates a larger chamber and, while it is good for CO2 to create more room to expand, it is detrimental to HPA because it now needs to pressurize more volume in the chamber. You can dump more air, but you are loosing performance at the same pressure level compared to the shorter probe
I don't think it is because it is an extended probe that you lost fps. Just doesn't make sense to me. The extended probe tip itself is taking up more room than a stock probe tip (or pretty close to equal the volume).
It could however be the bolt itself is not sealing properly when you did the change over and you are losing air at the seal. Sometiimes you need to reset your barrel back again when you change bolts because the length from the sealing oring to the bolt handle may vary a little.
Not always plug and play with the custom parts. I know that on my 1322 that when I changed from a stock to an extended probe, I got a jump up of about 7-8 fps, not a drop.
Ya know, that made me scratch my head also. I just never heard of an extended bolt causing a loss of power. Usually, just the opposite. When the pellet is seated past the transfer port it does not create any obstruction for the propellant, weather it be air or CO2. Any obstruction in the propellant path will slow it down.
Extended probes also seem to help accuracy by seating the pellet firmly in the rifling consistently as opposed to getting blown into the rifling at different angles.
I think Rich has the right idea as to the reason the probe caused a loss of power. It's not the probe itself but the placement of the probe in relation to the barrel. Just might need a larger Oring.... ???
Ok. I am done with the 1322. I have tried some mods on it and NONE of them were worth the trouble or money:
- Flat top piston/valve from MellonAir: +0 fps compared to stock. +2 pumps full dump compared to stock resulting in 560fps at 16 pumps
- Extended probe: -20fps repeatable loss, whatever the reason is.
- Weaker valve spring, virtually no change in pumping effort or performance, +0 fps, +(idon'tknow) how many pumps, stopped at 20, full dump, but the same 560fps total.
- Fiber optic front sight from Alchemy - drilled off center, extremely confusing to aim. in the trash it goes.
- Crosman scope adapters - useless as the barrel is not very stable with the stock breech. Don't bother.
What worked:
- polishing trigger parts, lighter spring/guide from AC
In comparison, my first 14.5" custom shop 1300 shoots 600fps at 14 pumps with stock everything. I am not planning on shooting it at 14 pumps, it will be reserved for emergency hunting, so I am not worried about extra wear.
The lesson here, at least for me, buy a custom shop with longer barrel and don't attempt to mod anything for power, you won't get much (if anything at all) compared to stock. Crosman seems to have updated the piston, reducing the head space
Cheers
Quote from: arkmaker on February 02, 2017, 11:58:14 AM
There is a thread on here that shows what someone did to get his pumper set up for minimum pumps (I think it was 3-4) and shooting speeds for 10M target. If that is what you are after, then that post might be of help long term. I will try to find it and post the link.
Rich
EDIT: Here is the link.......
https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,4088.msg40044.html (https://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,4088.msg40044.html)
Also, take a look at WyoMan's Stickies in the pumper section for even more ideas
Rich and temchik,
I also did this mod (valve volume reducer plug) to my 10M multi-pump, which does 465 fps at 3 pumps (.177 RWS 7.0gr Basics).
I'm also surprised that the extended probe and FT setup did not yield performance improvements.
JMJ
I forgot to mention the valve plug, did that. Gained +20fps on 3 pumps to the total of 320fps. +0 on full power
Re-cronied, FT piston and valve, lighter valve spring, valve plug, stock bolt/probe and stock everything else:
3x - 310fps
5x - 490fps
10x - 500fps
15+ - 560fps
I guess I could reach 600fps on over 20 pumps, but have no interest in doing so
NO change from stock whatsoever :) ETA: well, I can pump more than 15 and the best change so far is a smoother shot cycle due to the debouncing effect of the lighter valve spring. I'll take it, just wish I didn't spend over $100 extra for this gun to just get that :)
I wonder if you are having any hammer drag? Sometimes the sear can drag on the hammer if the overtravel screw is not backed out enough. That can restrict performance and a lot of folks never look for that. Not sure, just throwing stuff out there, but it sure seems like you should be getting better numbers with everything that you have done. ???
Nope, no overtravel screw on stock 1322 or 1300kt
Quote from: arkmaker on February 23, 2017, 11:29:22 PM
I wonder if you are having any hammer drag? Sometimes the sear can drag on the hammer if the overtravel screw is not backed out enough. That can restrict performance and a lot of folks never look for that. Not sure, just throwing stuff out there, but it sure seems like you should be getting better numbers with everything that you have done. ???