Crosman Air Pistol Owners Forum

Crosman air pistol - General => Crosman air pistol - General discussion => Topic started by: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 03:23:21 AM

Title: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 03:23:21 AM
So I finally destroyed my target box, blowing through 3 car floor mats and the 3/8 plywood behind it. I made it before the duct seal discussion took place so I figured I'd wear it out before making another one.

I went to Lowes tonight to get everything needed to build a proper target box and to my surprise I couldn't find duct seal. I asked at the service desk and they looked at me like I had three heads. Finally I found someone who knew what I was talking about and told me where it was, only it wasn't there. Going to try the Depot tomorrow.

Just needed to vent  :(

Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: farrlarr on July 26, 2012, 03:32:23 AM
You will find duct seal in the electrical section of both Lowe's and Home Depot.  It is surprising that so few of their employees (both stores) have any idea what it is or where to find it.  It is usually located on a bottom shelf, in a white box that is only a couple of sticks wide, with the top ripped off.  The sticks inside are usually wrapped in white plastic with simple black labeling on it.

I suggest that you go online and check both store's Web sites, searching specifically for duct seal.  You will be able to identify your local store and then see if they list duct seal in stock at that store.  That might save you some running around trying to find it.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 03:33:12 AM
I was unable to find duct seal at Lowes or Home Depot. Most of the staff points you towards plumbers putty, which is useless in a trap. Let us know if you find any. In the meantime, I use rubber mulch in my traps - cheap and effective.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 03:35:02 AM
Quote from: farrlarr on July 26, 2012, 03:32:23 AM
You will find duct seal in the electrical section of both Lowe's and Home Depot.  It is surprising that so few of their employees (both stores) have any idea what it is or where to find it.  It is usually located on a bottom shelf, in a white box that is only a couple of sticks wide, with the top ripped off.  The sticks inside are usually wrapped in white plastic with simple black labeling on it.

I suggest that you go online and check both store's Web sites, searching specifically for duct seal.  You will be able to identify your local store and then see if they list duct seal in stock at that store.  That might save you some running around trying to find it.

Thanks for the info. I thought it would be in the heating/ac vent area. I also looked in plumbing. I'll search the store sight and see what I come up with.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: 1377x on July 26, 2012, 03:37:00 AM
Quote from: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 03:33:12 AM
I was unable to find duct seal at Lowes or Home Depot. Most of the staff points you towards plumbers putty, which is useless in a trap. Let us know if you find any. In the meantime, I use rubber mulch in my traps - cheap and effective.
that pretty much what gun ranges use as a backstop chewed up tires which is rubber mulch
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 03:41:36 AM
Quote from: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 03:33:12 AM
I was unable to find duct seal at Lowes or Home Depot. Most of the staff points you towards plumbers putty, which is useless in a trap. Let us know if you find any. In the meantime, I use rubber mulch in my traps - cheap and effective.

The reason I wanted to go with the duct seal was because of the mess my current trap makes. I use it in the basement and I'm concerned about the dust from the cardboard, carpet and mostly the pellets. The only good thing was that I had six months of used pellets to give to my buddy for fishing weights  :-*
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: jdub on July 26, 2012, 03:45:06 AM
Our Lowes and Home Depot both have it but not a single employee at either store knew what or where it was and it was in a weird spot with some misc electrical parts in both stores.  $2 a lb at Home Depot and $2.50 at Lowes. 

Next time I'm there I'll take a photo of the location since all stores are pretty much laid out the same.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: gdm620 on July 26, 2012, 04:06:31 AM
I bought mine at Menards which is like a home depot or lowes.  It was in the electrical department.  Kind of hard to see.  It blends in with the rest of the crap pretty well.  It was on the bottum shelf also.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 04:10:22 AM
Just checked both the depot and lowes websites.

Home Depot #SKU # 593567 $2.19 per .85 lb.
   
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100212441/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=duct+seal&storeId=10051 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100212441/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=duct+seal&storeId=10051)

Lowes  #31-601 $2.48 per 1.0 lb.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_13591-12704-31-601_0__?storeNumber=0622&Ntt=duct+seal&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=%5Bcom.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%405fb65fb6%5D&productId=3127723&ipTrail=68.32.43.49&rpp=16 (http://www.lowes.com/pd_13591-12704-31-601_0__?storeNumber=0622&Ntt=duct+seal&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=%5Bcom.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%405fb65fb6%5D&productId=3127723&ipTrail=68.32.43.49&rpp=16)

Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Fronzdan on July 26, 2012, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: farrlarr on July 26, 2012, 03:32:23 AM
You will find duct seal in the electrical section of both Lowe's and Home Depot.  It is surprising that so few of their employees (both stores) have any idea what it is or where to find it.  It is usually located on a bottom shelf, in a white box that is only a couple of sticks wide, with the top ripped off.  The sticks inside are usually wrapped in white plastic with simple black labeling

Yep that's exactly right.  It will always be in the electrical section where they have the breaker panels etc.  I've bought it at a few different lowes and depots.  The box is small and very easy to miss.  I was standing in front of it once and asked the guy.  He pointed down.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Nightsniper52 on July 26, 2012, 07:36:16 AM
Quote from: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 03:33:12 AM
I was unable to find duct seal at Lowes or Home Depot. Most of the staff points you towards plumbers putty, which is useless in a trap. Let us know if you find any. In the meantime, I use rubber mulch in my traps - cheap and effective.
Where do you find this rubber mulch?  Lowes and Manards dont have it here.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: plasticclassic on July 26, 2012, 08:54:50 AM
What's a good way to hold the rubber mulch in?
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: JMJinNC on July 26, 2012, 02:49:12 PM
Every time I'm in Lowes or Home Depot, I check to see that the have it in stock, just in case. Lowes is much better about stocking it, but it's more expensive. Finding it it easy now, and exactly as described above.

As for the rubber mulch, I've seen other guys fill a deep trap with rubber mulch, then jam a piece of cardboard against it to keep it in. Target goes on or in front of the cardboard "keeper". After several hundred shot, replace the cardboard.

JMJ

Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: woody67 on July 26, 2012, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: plasticclassic on July 26, 2012, 08:54:50 AM
What's a good way to hold the rubber mulch in?

Mix it up with the duct seal!
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 02:57:51 PM
Quote from: JMJinNC on July 26, 2012, 02:49:12 PMAs for the rubber mulch, I've seen other guys fill a deep trap with rubber mulch, then jam a piece of cardboard against it to keep it in. Target goes on or in front of the cardboard "keeper". After several hundred shot, replace the cardboard.

What he said. I use a sheet of cardboard. To hold the cardboard in place I drilled a few holes on opposite sides of the trap and fed insulation hanger wire into the holes, across the cardboard and into the hole on the other side. Any stiff wire would work. Replace the cardboard as needed.

Rubber mulch is generally available at all big box DIY stores. Cost is @$8 for 0.3 c.f. That is plenty to fill two traps to a depth of 4" or so.

Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 04:06:55 PM
Quote from: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 02:57:51 PM
What he said. I use a sheet of cardboard. To hold the cardboard in place I drilled a few holes on opposite sides of the trap and fed insulation hanger wire into the holes, across the cardboard and into the hole on the other side. Any stiff wire would work. Replace the cardboard as needed.

Rubber mulch is generally available at all big box DIY stores. Cost is @$8 for 0.3 c.f. That is plenty to fill two traps to a depth of 4" or so.

Do pellets bounce out at all?
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: breakfastchef on July 26, 2012, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: sandpiper on July 26, 2012, 04:06:55 PM
Do pellets bounce out at all?

Never. I do affix target to the front of the trap backed with cardboard or foam-core board.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: John C on July 29, 2012, 03:13:34 AM
What traps are people using duct seal in?  I have a beeman pellet trap, but I'd like to start using duct seal to contain the pellets better.  Can I just slap some in my current trap, or do I need a new setup?

Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: breakfastchef on July 29, 2012, 03:29:46 AM
I found duct seal, finally, in my local Lowe's. Thanks to all that described the lower shelf location.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 29, 2012, 04:07:49 AM
Quote from: John C on July 29, 2012, 03:13:34 AM
What traps are people using duct seal in?  I have a beeman pellet trap, but I'd like to start using duct seal to contain the pellets better.  Can I just slap some in my current trap, or do I need a new setup?

Hi John C and welcome. Most guys are making their own traps out of wood and using duct seal to grab the pellets. It's a great way to elimate bounce and keep the lead dust down.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: farrlarr on July 29, 2012, 05:54:00 AM
You can actually get away with only one stick of duct seal thickness, approximately an inch, unless you have a magnum airgun.  To simplify things, I suggest that you make it two sticks thick, approximately two inches.  Few pellets will penetrate to the second inch; the advantage is that you can simply turn the whole duct seal layer over when one side gets too full of pellets (you can delay that happening by occasionally picking pellets out of the surface layer).

You can either build a wooden box to hold the duct seal (it will stick quite nicely to the wooden back board) or you can buy a large electrical junction box to hold it (the duct seal will also stick to the back of the junction box; the size of the box depends on availability, your ability to shoot accurately, your funds to buy both the junction box and enough duct seal to fill it, etc). 
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: JMJinNC on July 29, 2012, 03:36:01 PM
Regarding boxes for the duct seal, I've also seen old wooden desk/dresser drawers used, cheap metal cash boxes, and plastic tool boxes (the blow-molded ones that drills come in). 

Archer Airguns sells some that are very nice. I chose to make my own. I have 2 wooden traps that hold letter-size cardstock targets as well as 4" setups for field target type practice.

JMJ
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sbcrockett on July 29, 2012, 07:03:05 PM
I have an unlimited supply of really dense packing foam sheets. The kind that compresses maybe a half inch when pinched. I was think that it might be useful material to stuff into a trap. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: breakfastchef on July 29, 2012, 09:04:15 PM
Quote from: sbcrockett on July 29, 2012, 07:03:05 PM
I have an unlimited supply of really dense packing foam sheets. The kind that compresses maybe a half inch when pinched. I was think that it might be useful material to stuff into a trap. What do you guys think?

I've hadd pellets bounce off foam. A loose hanging sheet or towel works better as a backdrop. You could also build a few traps when you are on paper. They are portable, too for those living-room-down-the-hall-to-the-bathroom shots.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: jdub on July 30, 2012, 12:08:06 AM
I made three new ones recently.  One for my office, one for the living room, and one for my garage.  When I made these I cut a piece of metal roof flashing and used it to line the back.  Most of my guns penetrate less than 1/2" but on the off chance that pellets makes it further the metal will stop them.  I occasionally check the duct seal when I change targets.  Scrape a few pellets loose and move the putty around if a spot is getting low.  It helps if you use different types of targets that don't all have the bullesyes in the same spot.

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/C95.jpg)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: 1377x on July 30, 2012, 12:23:25 AM
nice traps!
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Fronzdan on July 30, 2012, 02:23:48 AM
I'd go a few inches of the duct seal if you're shooting with anything over 800 fps and it's pretty accurate.  I can stack pellets with my Talon and I pull big wads of lead a couple inches deep into the stuff.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BigErn on July 30, 2012, 04:53:57 PM
Quote from: 1377x on July 30, 2012, 12:23:25 AM
nice traps!

X2!
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: jdub on July 30, 2012, 05:04:46 PM
Quote from: Fronzdan on July 30, 2012, 02:23:48 AM
I'd go a few inches of the duct seal if you're shooting with anything over 800 fps and it's pretty accurate.  I can stack pellets with my Talon and I pull big wads of lead a couple inches deep into the stuff.
I agree.  All of mine airguns are mild shooters and I use about an inch but if I had a magnum I'd definitely want more duct seal in there.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BigErn on July 30, 2012, 05:30:48 PM
I would go with 2" too. I shoot at 25 yards and sometimes the pellets go through the 1st block of duct seal using a .22 Trail. I found a broken safe and made a trap out of it with 2" of duct seal. Weighs a ton!

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2017/dscn0955v.jpg)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: jdub on July 30, 2012, 05:41:17 PM
Quote from: BigErn on July 30, 2012, 05:30:48 PM
I would go with 2" too. I shoot at 25 yards and sometimes the pellets go through the 1st block of duct seal using a .22 Trail. I found a broken safe and made a trap out of it with 2" of duct seal. Weighs a ton!


Nice!!
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: RC1947 on July 30, 2012, 05:49:25 PM
Quote from: BigErn on July 30, 2012, 04:53:57 PM
X2!

Excellent! RC
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on July 30, 2012, 09:05:05 PM
Nothing getting through that one Big E :-*
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sbcrockett on August 05, 2012, 05:01:35 AM
thanks guys for this thread. duct seal is AWESOME stuff. just picked some up at HomeDepot (2 bucks a stick). needed 5 of 'em. my trap enclosure is a cockpit display housing off of a Boeing 777. cut a piece of quarter inch press board and mounted the duct seal to it. the rear cover comes off for replacement/cleaning.

I shot from 5 pumps up to 10 pumps and the pellets didn't go in any more than 1/8 of an inch! put a nice handle on top, clip board holder for the targets and rubber pad for the feet and it's a great indoor "silent" trap.

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o630/e21euro/trap3.jpg)

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o630/e21euro/trap2.jpg)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on August 05, 2012, 05:18:28 AM
Awesome job. Now that's a pellet grabber  :-*
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: 1377x on August 05, 2012, 05:24:48 AM
nice!
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on August 06, 2012, 04:31:38 AM
I finally got to the home depot to pick up my duct seal. Walked in and right past the customer service counter where a nice customer oriented associate asked "can I help you find anything". I answered "no thanks" cause I was on a mission toward the electrical isle where right on the bottom shelf i was going to find the elusive duct seal. So .... a few minutes in the electrical isle and no bottom self duct seal. Back to the service desk I go and the nice polite fellow from earlier says he'll show me right where it's at but it's not in the electrical isle. I said, "no, my buddies said electrical. He said "let's prove them wrong and walked me to the heating/ac isle, pointing to some caulking stuff and said "here it is". My thought, "here we go again"  :-X  Then I remembered I put the sku# in my phone. Sure enough, it was in the electrical isle.

Moral of story: Listen to your airgun buddies, not the guy that works in the damn store! I finally got my duct seal  8)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Crosshairs on August 06, 2012, 12:19:25 PM
Quote from: sbcrockett on August 05, 2012, 05:01:35 AM
thanks guys for this thread. duct seal is AWESOME stuff. just picked some up at HomeDepot (2 bucks a stick). needed 5 of 'em. my trap enclosure is a cockpit display housing off of a Boeing 777. cut a piece of quarter inch press board and mounted the duct seal to it. the rear cover comes off for replacement/cleaning.

I shot from 5 pumps up to 10 pumps and the pellets didn't go in any more than 1/8 of an inch! put a nice handle on top, clip board holder for the targets and rubber pad for the feet and it's a great indoor "silent" trap.

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o630/e21euro/trap3.jpg)

(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o630/e21euro/trap2.jpg)
Nice trap you put together now i want to see pics of the inside in a week from now.
                                                  Mike
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Crosshairs on August 06, 2012, 12:22:07 PM
Quote from: BigErn on July 30, 2012, 05:30:48 PM
I would go with 2" too. I shoot at 25 yards and sometimes the pellets go through the 1st block of duct seal using a .22 Trail. I found a broken safe and made a trap out of it with 2" of duct seal. Weighs a ton!

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2017/dscn0955v.jpg)
Looking good Ern that sure will do the job, nice job buddy.
                                                Mike
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Crosshairs on August 06, 2012, 12:26:40 PM
I made this one from a old drill box it's nice and portable. When i go to one of my buddys i bring it along so i have my own target to shoot at.
                                                                                                       Mike  8)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on August 06, 2012, 12:36:29 PM
That's a great idea Mike.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BigErn on August 06, 2012, 03:10:22 PM
Quote from: Crosshairs on August 06, 2012, 12:22:07 PM
Looking good Ern that sure will do the job, nice job buddy.
                                                Mike

Thanks Mike! I got the idea from your Dewalt case trap!
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Fronzdan on August 06, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
All the guys with the recent builds...weigh it when you get a chance.  Then weight it in a few months.  Even with periodic cleaning, mine is so damn heavy now.  I swear there's an additional 10 lbs of lead buried in there.  Sure glad I put a handle on it.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Crosshairs on August 06, 2012, 07:47:23 PM
Quote from: Fronzdan on August 06, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
All the guys with the recent builds...weigh it when you get a chance.  Then weight it in a few months.  Even with periodic cleaning, mine is so damn heavy now.  I swear there's an additional 10 lbs of lead buried in there.  Sure glad I put a handle on it.
Yep thats for sure but i do clean them out now and then, still cant get the deeper ones.
                                             Mike
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: 1377x on August 06, 2012, 07:48:24 PM
Quote from: BigErn on July 30, 2012, 05:30:48 PM
I would go with 2" too. I shoot at 25 yards and sometimes the pellets go through the 1st block of duct seal using a .22 Trail. I found a broken safe and made a trap out of it with 2" of duct seal. Weighs a ton!

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2017/dscn0955v.jpg)
was the safe broken before you found it ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sbcrockett on August 06, 2012, 08:00:41 PM
Quote from: sandpiper on August 06, 2012, 04:31:38 AM
I finally got to the home depot to pick up my duct seal. Walked in and right past the customer service counter where a nice customer oriented associate asked "can I help you find anything". I answered "no thanks" cause I was on a mission toward the electrical isle where right on the bottom shelf i was going to find the elusive duct seal. So .... a few minutes in the electrical isle and no bottom self duct seal. Back to the service desk I go and the nice polite fellow from earlier says he'll show me right where it's at but it's not in the electrical isle. I said, "no, my buddies said electrical. He said "let's prove them wrong and walked me to the heating/ac isle, pointing to some caulking stuff and said "here it is". My thought, "here we go again"  :-X  Then I remembered I put the sku# in my phone. Sure enough, it was in the electrical isle.

Moral of story: Listen to your airgun buddies, not the guy that works in the damn store! I finally got my duct seal  8)

I'm probably the only guy here who went to the oldest looking Home Depot employee, who just happened to know EXACTLY what duct seal was and where to find it! In the electrical aisle, of course! I swear, he probably even knew what I was going to use it for (as I bought up the last 8 lbs).  :)

I will put the trap on the scale today and report back in a week or two :-*
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on August 06, 2012, 08:02:55 PM
Quote from: sbcrockett on August 06, 2012, 08:00:41 PM
I'm probably the only guy here who went to the oldest looking Home Depot employee, who just happened to know EXACTLY what duct seal was and where to find it! In the electrical aisle, of course! I swear, he probably even knew what I was going to use it for (as I bought up the last 8 lbs).  :)

I will put the trap on the scale today and report back in a week or two :-*

Yup, I got the youngster  :P
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Crosshairs on August 06, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
Old is wise  ;)
                   Mike  8)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BigErn on August 06, 2012, 11:00:16 PM
Quote from: 1377x on August 06, 2012, 07:48:24 PM
was the safe broken before you found it ;) ;D ;D

Yeah I found it at the beach. Someone else kept the other half but this one had the handle  :-*
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: plasticclassic on August 08, 2012, 06:42:36 PM
Does anyone know if the Home Depot duct deal and the Lowes duct seal are the same stuff? What I mean is can you mix the two together in a trap with no ill effect?
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: farrlarr on August 08, 2012, 06:50:57 PM
Quote from: plasticclassic on August 08, 2012, 06:42:36 PM
Does anyone know if the Home Depot duct deal and the Lowes duct seal are the same stuff? What I mean is can you mix the two together in a trap with no ill effect?

They are essentially identical, maybe even the same brand (depending on which stores you shop) although their Web pages indicate different brands.  I can't think of any reason that mixing would cause any problems at all.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: JMJinNC on August 08, 2012, 09:51:32 PM
FWIW - I've only ever seen the Gardner Bender duct seal (white plastic wrapper) at Lowes or Home Depot.

JMJ
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BDS on August 09, 2012, 10:00:06 PM
Quote from: plasticclassic on August 08, 2012, 06:42:36 PM
Does anyone know if the Home Depot duct deal and the Lowes duct seal are the same stuff? What I mean is can you mix the two together in a trap with no ill effect?

It's chemically identical, and unless you stick in your pants  :D or eat a few pounds of it, it's reasonably safe, BTW, it's flash point or ignition point is 590 deg F and it would melt at about 350 F, so fire would be highly unlikely.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on August 09, 2012, 10:05:49 PM
Quote from: BDS on August 09, 2012, 10:00:06 PM
and unless you stick in your pants  :D o

Now Brian, you're not speaking from experience are you ?  ;)
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BDS on August 09, 2012, 10:11:50 PM
 :D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Uh errr, maybe  ???  :-[
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: sandpiper on August 09, 2012, 10:14:18 PM
Quote from: BDS on August 09, 2012, 10:11:50 PM
:D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Uh errr, maybe  ???  :-[

Don't worry. Your secret's good with me  :-*
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: Fronzdan on August 09, 2012, 10:59:00 PM
The Lowes duct seal tastes a little better than the Home Depot stuff to me.  Other than that, mix it all up and fill it with lead.
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: BDS on August 09, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
 :D ;D
Title: Re: duct seal again
Post by: woody67 on August 10, 2012, 11:30:19 AM
I recommend using a dry rub, and letting it sit overnight before you grill it...helps if you tenderize it a bit first
... ;D