I am very new to this so sorry if it has been covered
I will be getting a 1377 and I want it to be as quiet and accurate as possible for backyard target plinking no living things
and I also want it to be as quite as possible so as not to give my neighbors anything to be alarmed about
I understand that the less I pump it up the quieter it will be what can I do beyond that?
I also read something about a de pinger to quiet the action its self are these available for the 1377?
thanks
well, I'm exactly in your shoes and I'll let you know (hopefully with video and audio measurements) what a longer barrel and brake do as soon as I get my order from TKO!
I ordered a 16 inch barrel and 6.5 inch brake from Mike almost 2 weeks ago. The longest 10 days of my life, BTW...
From what I've read, most people that own CO2 pistols think that their cartridges are empty, it makes such a difference quieting things down. And, I'm hoping it will be a noticeable change for my 1377 as well. Mike recommended a 16-18 inch barrel for a carbine setup, but offers up to 24 inches. Or you can stay on the short side, but you need at least 11-12 inches to be able to fit the brake.
stay posted, I should have some numbers and sound clips this week (fingers crossed)!
Quote from: kb2rocket on August 19, 2012, 07:02:05 PM
I am very new to this so sorry if it has been covered
I will be getting a 1377 and I want it to be as quiet and accurate as possible for backyard target plinking no living things
and I also want it to be as quite as possible so as not to give my neighbors anything to be alarmed about
I understand that the less I pump it up the quieter it will be what can I do beyond that?
I also read something about a de pinger to quiet the action its self are these available for the 1377?
thanks
In my experience the 1377/1322 aren't that loud to begin with. Certainly nothing like a 2240 CO2 pistol. You'll need an 11-12" barrel and a new barrel band or drill out the one you have. One thing to be aware of is that if you are not planning to make this a carbine you will end up with a very long pistol. Not saying that's good or bad--just be aware.
I put a 7.5" LDC on a 1322 with 12" barrel and could shoot it in the living room without bothering anyone else in the house. Kind of like a sneeze. Very quiet.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn69/jerrywrussell/13221-1.jpg)
are air guns subject to the kinds of restrictions firearms are when using muzzle brakes ?
where is the line drawn to seperate muzzle brakes from muzzle brakes?
I just dont want to take a hobby that is ment to be fun and ruin it with legal problems :-X
SBCrockett that is a pretty cool setup my eyes arnt really that great I might need something better than open sights
I ment muzzle brakes from muzzle brakes ;)
kb2,
When you type in the name of the object to which you are referring, the software automatically changes it to Muzzle Brakes.
Cheers,
Technically air gun "brakes" are allowed, but if it can be removed and fitted by anyone with normal tools or garage machine shop tactics to a firearm. (basically if it's removable, folks), then you're in trouble. Also, trying to explain to a ranger or police officer at the local range is likely to be a harrowing experience. It needs to have come from the factory or machine shop as essentially one welded or interference fit piece. (or part of the barrel itself, like the Stoeger line)
OEM of course solves all legal issues. DIY, that's trickier. I'd personally not risk it as even an hour or two with a lawyer is more than the cost of most of our air guns. note - I've personally been asked (rather pointedly) about old spring-piston airguns with just a solid brake on the end in the past. Paranoia and lack of tolerance is the rule with most officers on the subject, unfortunately.
IME, shrouds are much better if you have a choice, as they fix the above re-purposing problem and don't look so obvious so as to draw attention at the range. Some guns like the Marauder come with them as well. The easy solution to all of this is to get a Marauder pistol.
thanks for the info. I will not be altering the barrel length or installing muzzle brakes flash hiders of the other bad S word it is what it is. wow I just saved some money :-*
Plekto makes some excellent points.
In my area it's illegal to shoot an airgun in the city so I can't even shoot in my backyard. My interest in muzzle brakes is to make my airguns indoor friendly so I can shoot in my garage and house.
I wouldn't take mine to a range for two reasons; 1) In my 20 years of shooting in Texas I have never seen an airgun at a range and they would probably laugh me out of the place :) and 2) the brake would definitely draw the attention of the range officer and anyone else shooting there.
There's a great article on Pyramyd Air's site. Go there and look under Articles (lower right) and then look for one with the S-word in it. I'd link to it but since that word it part of the URL it would break the rules (and the link).
You can also call Mike at TKO and get his side of the story. I think a lot depends on your geographical location. There are still huge areas of the US where you can drive around with a rifle on a rack in the back window of your pickup and local law enforcement won't bat an eye. These are likely the same guys who would be interested in your airguns without going all SWAT team on you. But, cruise around Dallas doing the same thing and you'll probably get pulled over within minutes when some freaked out driver calls 911. City cops would likely have a different attitude about muzzle brakes as well. At least around here.
I thought I saw a link to a legal document that basically differentiated between brakes (or shhh tubes, for our discussion purposes) on airguns and on firearms. Pretty sure it was here at CAPOF. Hmmm, I'll do some digging around...
@ kb: you should look at your municipal codes for your city and search on airguns. it should be pretty easy to find what the restrictions are. I'm lucky that my city only prohibits the aiming and firing at persons or others property to do harm. So, technically, I SHOULD be able to plink in my backyard. However, my 1377 is noticeably loud and very easy for the neighbors to identify what I'm doing. Plus, in my case, one side of my property is almost completely visible from the street.
You can imagine what the 911 calls would sound like if people saw me walking around with a scoped carbine. My plan is to get the brake on the gun to quiet it down and then put up a tent or tarp big enough for a bench and then setup targets down range toward the house. I should be able to get at least 25 yds that way.
In any case, I totally understand your legal concerns. For now, I am totally comfortable shooting in my basement with my pellet trap (very easy to make, btw) so I'm just waiting to get everything else setup.
Quote from: jdub on August 19, 2012, 09:28:29 PM
In my 20 years of shooting in Texas I have never seen an airgun at a range and they would probably laugh me out of the place :)
only until they saw your dime-sized grouping at 15 yds!
Here is a lengthy read about shushing devices as they pertain to airguns and firearms - http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html)
I own a muzzle device/air stripper from Neil Clague. It is a top-shelf device. He states on his website, "These products are designed and manufactured to be used strictly for airguns. It is a violation of Federal law to use these products in a manner inconsistent with their stated usage."
Some AG retailers won't sell or retrofit new rifles with sir strippers unless they are integral part of the gun. An example are shrouded barrels with air stripping qualities that come direct from the factory already installed.
The BATF website says airgun shhh "thingies" are illegal. Just sayin'...
(edited to add "airgun")
Quote from: D-R0CK on August 20, 2012, 06:53:52 AM
The BATF website says airgun shhh "thingies" are illegal. Just sayin'...
(edited to add "airgun")
BATF doesn't have any jurisdiction over airguns. And therein lies the problem. If it was absolutely certain that the brakes would only work on airguns there would be no issues except for whatever local ordinances exist. The problem is the possibility of airgun brakes being used on firearms.
here you go.airguns are not firearms.the aft does not regulate airguns
thread on report reducers is playing with fire but not illegal according to the document posted
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15340 (http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15340)
thanks, Ed. that was the case I was talking about. but I like your link better because of that moderators avatar. it was the first thing I saw this morning, and I must say was a very pleasant way to wake up! :)
Quote from: sbcrockett on August 20, 2012, 06:26:01 PM
thanks, Ed. that was the case I was talking about. but I like your link better because of that moderators avatar. it was the first thing I saw this morning, and I must say was a very pleasant way to wake up! :)
thats the same thing i thought when i found it
OH what do we have here!!!
Keep in mind that BATFE & the DOJ play by their own rules in the early stages of any investigation or arrests. Fast & Furious, David Karesh, Ruby Ridge come to mind?
Basically, it's the old French system of guilty until proven innocent. If an un-informed (or un-sympathetic) agent deems your device to be capable of being atached to a firearm, it is capable until YOU can prove otherwise. This has nothing to do with their lack of jurisdiction over airguns, and everything to do with a device being a controlled item, categorized similar to an automatic weapon, or explosive device etc. I think we overlook the fact that a device laying on your bench or in a box for that matter could be the focus of prosecution, regardless of what it was attached to recently (i.e. an airgun).
Last, we (as informed hobbyists) know that a TKO type device would not sustain more than one shot from a .22 lr let alone anything larger however, this knowledge and the makers disclaimers would be meaningless to the agencies that go after this stuff. Disclaimers such as "it's illegal to use this device except for it's intended purpose" (airguns) won't mean a thing.
BTW, I have 3 TKOs and will probably get more but, I recognize the thin line we walk and who has the odds heavily in their favor in this game of chance.
thats true
have you read the document?
iirc the device was not attached to the gun but it was in the same box plus the other issues that lead to the arrest
it came down to the atf had to modify it to work on a firearm thats what got the guys conviction overturned.a tko probably can reduce the report in a firearm i dont know i havent tried it and wont try it.it would need to be modified to do so then bad intent comes into play.its my understanding that even if a tko can do that as long as its not modified to fit anything other than an airgun its safe.
it makes me wonder what will happen if you have a threaded tko,they are available.that wouldnt need to be modified
Quote from: 1377x on August 20, 2012, 09:52:18 PM
thats true
have you read the document?
iirc the device was not attached to the gun but it was in the same box plus the other issues that lead to the arrest
it came down to the atf had to modify it to work on a firearm thats what got the guys conviction overturned.a tko probably can reduce the report in a firearm i dont know i havent tried it and wont try it.it would need to be modified to do so then bad intent comes into play.its my understanding that even if a tko can do that as long as its not modified to fit anything other than an airgun its safe.
it makes me wonder what will happen if you have a threaded tko,they are available.that wouldnt need to be modified
That's a very interesting read. I liked the part where the gov witness said it would be possible to hold the device in your hand on the end of the barrel of a firearm while shooting with the other. And gun owners are supposed to be the scary ones?? :o
Like BDS and others I realize it's a fine line and I'm not about to do anything to provoke curiosity--like take mine out in public anywhere. For me it's just a great way to be able to shoot at home.
I've toyed with the idea of getting a Class II license several times in order to legally obtain these things for firearms but the $200 fee kind of sticks in my throat. Even if you have a Class II license they could nail you with these LDCs because they not serialized nor registered.
I do think after reading that article that if I sold someone an airgun with an LDC I'd pull it off and ship them in separate boxes. Thanks again for posting the link 1377!
Quote from: jdub on August 20, 2012, 06:59:19 AM
BATF doesn't have any jurisdiction over airguns. And therein lies the problem. If it was absolutely certain that the brakes would only work on airguns there would be no issues except for whatever local ordinances exist. The problem is the possibility of airgun brakes being used on firearms.
But they do have jurisdiction over firearms. And a supressor capable of being put on a firearm (.17 HMR would fit pretty easy...) is a firearm. I don't mean to stir the pot any more than it already has been, but on the BATF website they specifically say that there have been several convictions related to suppressing airguns, while skirting around whether they are completely illegal or only in special cases. It seems to me that the only way you will ever be prosecuted for a suppressed airgun is in connection to another crime. All of the instances in which someone was prosecuted involved some other unlawful activity. Don't sell drugs and it's pretty doubtful they'll come knocking on your door looking for your TKO LDC, just my $0.02
Quote from: D-R0CK on August 21, 2012, 01:23:22 AM
But they do have jurisdiction over firearms. And a supressor capable of being put on a firearm (.17 HMR would fit pretty easy...) is a firearm. I don't mean to stir the pot any more than it already has been, but on the BATF website they specifically say that there have been several convictions related to suppressing airguns, while skirting around whether they are completely illegal or only in special cases. It seems to me that the only way you will ever be prosecuted for a suppressed airgun is in connection to another crime. All of the instances in which someone was prosecuted involved some other unlawful activity. Don't sell drugs and it's pretty doubtful they'll come knocking on your door looking for your TKO LDC, just my $0.02
Agreed.
this should settle the report reducer argument
taken right from the aft website
it is for paintball guns but the definition also applys to aiguns because they are not firearms
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf)
this should get stickied
Quote from: 1377x on August 21, 2012, 02:28:27 AM
this should settle the report reducer argument
taken right from the aft website
it is for paintball guns but the definition also applys to aiguns because they are not firearms
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf)
According to this one the guy in your first link shouldn't have been acquitted because his muffler wasn't permanently attached to his gun, right? This one is 2005 the other is 2010. Sounds like another one of those things where you still need a judge to make the final decision.
Read and re-read those ATF "non-decisions". The paintball issue in particular is written so as to STILL allow for the removed device to be a) controlled through the $200 fed tax process and/or b) once removed, to be "tested" by the ATF for it's application to and effectiveness on a firearm PRIOR to any use.
Gotta love >:( those govt lawyers, bet ya at least two dozen wrote and re-wrote this jewel of a legal decision :D ;D
Quote from: BDS on August 21, 2012, 04:53:31 PM
Read and re-read those ATF "non-decisions". The paintball issue in particular is written so as to STILL allow for the removed device to be a) controlled through the $200 fed tax process and/or b) once removed, to be "tested" by the ATF for it's application to and effectiveness on a firearm PRIOR to any use.
Gotta love >:( those govt lawyers, bet ya at least two dozen wrote and re-wrote this jewel of a legal decision :D ;D
YEA ... and we paid for it ..... Taxes ......
To me the reason why I avoid it all is because it's a huge headache of questions, paperwork, and often less than friendly legal and law enforcement people just waiting to make you need an entire bottle of Asprin. It's kind of like having a 4X4 and deciding to drive through the swamp rather than just take the road around it. Can it be done? Probably. Just expect to not get through it without some dirt and dings.
Also, since these are becoming extremely common in the last few years (aftermarket as well as OEM), it's only a matter of time before someone cracks down on them.
To the original poster, changing the barrel length is no big deal. $20-$30 for a replacement barrel and you're good to go. The real solution though is to add a shroud, which is 100% legal and will simply look like a bull barrel from a distance. They are quieter, draw less attention (can take to the range with no issues), and are a superior way to do it. The downside is that they are expensive.
http://bnm111.hpage.co.in/crosman_2240__13553638.html (http://bnm111.hpage.co.in/crosman_2240__13553638.html)
It's basically a Marauder Pistol that runs on CO2. $250 and worth every penny, IMO. I'm personally a fan of CO2 due to lower initial cost, and this is $250 and drop a CO2 cartridge in it. A Marauder Pistol is close to $450-500 by the time you get a tank and/or pump and fittings.
there was a thread on airgun supresors over on gta
mac-1 told of his experience with the subject. he actuall sends devices to the aft for approval
i cover my arse by using permanently mounted report reducers like this one.its never coming off
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/edf73/PICT0076-1.jpg)
He uses an interference fit and is one of the few shops anywhere that does it correctly. Basically it involves heating one item and cooling the other and fitting them together.(notmal hand tools won't usually make it fit - think heavy machinery) It might as well be one piece of metal after it cools, since they are pressing on each other with thousands of pounds of friction and and attempt to heat one heats the other. IIRC, he said that he spent almost a decade sending devices to to be tested before he figured out how to get it right.
He's not cheap, but he can do it right. Oh, there's a thread on GTA about the rifles that won Gold in the recent Olympics being loaned by him and a couple of GTA members. (including his own personal gun) Silly cutting edge barrels and regulation that simply out-shoots every other design. Hard core American machining and technical expertise that stomped the German and Russian designs.
wow :o real minefield for you guys cant help but wonder if one of your manufactures couldnt just make something out of a combustable/fragile (stiff card or thin brittle plastic) material that could never effectively be used on a firearm without causing total failure and get it approved.but one of your prosecutors would probably argue that harry potter could cast a spell on it and make it indestructible ;D
Quote from: Plekto on August 22, 2012, 08:52:54 AM
He uses an interference fit and is one of the few shops anywhere that does it correctly. Basically it involves heating one item and cooling the other and fitting them together.(notmal hand tools won't usually make it fit - think heavy machinery) It might as well be one piece of metal after it cools, since they are pressing on each other with thousands of pounds of friction and and attempt to heat one heats the other. IIRC, he said that he spent almost a decade sending devices to to be tested before he figured out how to get it right.
He's not cheap, but he can do it right. Oh, there's a thread on GTA about the rifles that won Gold in the recent Olympics being loaned by him and a couple of GTA members. (including his own personal gun) Silly cutting edge barrels and regulation that simply out-shoots every other design. Hard core American machining and technical expertise that stomped the German and Russian designs.
its not cheap but worth it if you live in an overzealous area