Valve 2100 vs 13xx

[Ryan]

The 2100 valve is comparatively much shorter than the 13xx's, but the 2100 has a much bigger swipe volume.  Can someone shed some light on the output between a bigger swipe volume/smaller valve and 13xx valve with a smaller swipe volume/bigger valve.

If I put a 13xx value into a 2100, would that generate a higher output than the original smaller valve, or I will be better off using the 2100 smaller valve ? Thanks in advance

[rangerfredbob]

I don't know about the comparisons, but the 2100 valve just has a shorter front section, they have the same internal components just a shorter section between the valve face and check valve.

[Ryan]

I see

[K.O.]

I am using a 2100 pump tube for the base  of my 1325XLT project and have reason (in my mind) to think I will be getting  about 625 fps using H&N

20g pellets.

BUT,

I am going about it in a convoluted way...

I am notching the exhaust section of of the 2200 valve to allow it to be moved back .3"

A modded 760( shortened and air cavity extended into nose, a copy of 2200 nose but .3" longer) nose will be used for the front  which will allow me to keep the pump stroke long...

you can not use the 13xx nose because of the hole in the nose for attaching the front of the  grip frame...

Because I will have a 1/3 larger air chamber and the same stroke I will have to pump + 1/3 more time to reach the same pressure...

If you use a 13xx piston in a 2100 you can nocth the back and move it back a bit but the exast poppet shaft is already pretty short so that means you

would have to use an adjustable/custom piston and shorten the stroke

that and with the increased valve volume would mean more pumping...

How much...

You should do your own simple math...    pi(r²)l = V

[K.O.]

Oh I did not think it all the way thru

you are talking about in a 2100 and if so you can not move the valve back.

So honestly unless you are building a 2100/13xx hybrid, I do not think it is worth the effort...

[Ryan]

KO,

The 2100 out of a box is shooting at say 650 fps in .177. If everything being equal, the same gun would do say 500+ in .22. What I am trying to achieve is to build a 2100 with a 13xx trigger frame but to shoot a .22 in 600+. The key to this is obviously in the valve and to make use of the long stroke.

I have seen many many write-ups on a 2100 tube on a 13xx frame going at 650 fps on .22s. The 2100 valve is about half the size of that of a 13xx's. So locking it to the 13xx frame is impossible. Using a 13xx valve will obviously defeat the long stroke purpose. Unless I tweak a hybrid valve, I have no alternative but to use the original 2100 valve. That will put back to a stock 2100 again, running around in circle. Any idea?

[K.O.]

KO,

The 2100 out of a box is shooting at say 650 fps in .177. If everything being equal, the same gun would do say 500+ in .22. What I am trying to achieve is to build a 2100 with a 13xx trigger frame but to shoot a .22 in 600+. The key to this is obviously in the valve and to make use of the long stroke.

the stock 2200 will hit 600 fps and the first gens   more it is the same power plant as the 2100 so if  600 fps is your goal the stock 2100 valve will get the job done in ten pumps.

In fact  the 2100/2200 has some leaking probs and could use some fixes that will gain you 50-70 fps making a 1322/2100 will fix many of those problems and if you get it right(springs, porting etc) you just might hit  640-650 fps with a 18" barrel.
I put a flat top valve and piston in a buddies old leaky 2200 and it hit the mid 620s. you can not flat top the 2200 valve because the air chamber extends into the nose so  big bore Bart on the gta made a few noses.  He still might have a few?  I just fit and shim the cup to the valve for no headspace.


http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/02/testing-crosman-2200-part-2.html
http://www.network54.com/Realm/CFTech/FB22002.htm


I have seen many many write-ups on a 2100 tube on a 13xx frame going at 650 fps on .22s. The 2100 valve is about half the size of that of a 13xx's. So locking it to the 13xx frame is impossible. Using a 13xx valve will obviously defeat the long stroke purpose. Unless I tweak a hybrid valve, I have no alternative but to use the original 2100 valve. That will put back to a stock 2100 again, running around in circle. Any idea?

on the inside you can do a few thing to gain some volume with the 2100 valve also.

I wanted to use a 13xx valve for my 1325 project because the .25 does need more air and it is easier to add volume than pressure.
using a 13xx valve can be done but you have to sleeve the 2100 pump tube to extend it and the make a new sear and a few other things also would need to drill out the valve retention hump in the 2100 pump tube.

but remember the reason to use a 2100 pump tube is to reduce the number of pumps needed and I do not feel that in .22 unlees going for over 700 fps using the 13xx valve is necessary. there is the advantage of getting the front pistol grip screw mount back though. that screw hole  prevents the 13xx nose from being open like the 2200 , trade offs...

Big Bore Bart will be modding a 760 nose for me it is the same as the 13xx nose except no screw hole in the nose so extending the air cavity up into the nose and making it into a copy of a 2100 valve but with a .3" longer nose will give me the volume I need for the .25 bore. the bottom of the valve will be notched so I can move it back that same .3    That is how far back I can mount the breech using the 2100 tube without extending it.

[K.O.]

Here is a thread where Bart outlines the 2100 flat top valve cap and gets  870fps from a modded  766(2100 family/predecessor ) @ 16 pumps with 7.9g pellets

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=54854.0

Honestly I am on just my 3rd project but to figure things out

your best friends will be...

good search skills

a Vernier caliper

knowing  how to find the volume of a cylinder

and knowing how to find the area of a circles

and Boyle law. 

with those you can gain a pretty fair Idea of how to go about these mods,,


IMO...

[BDS]

Valve work is an art, just as much as science. Here's an old-school gun..

Crosman Model 1-2280, re-built by Jeff Wolgast with 2260 polished & crowned barrel set screwed in-place, bolt change with o-ring, sealed transfer mod, modified high capacity valve and pumping sequence changed to "cock before pumping" style.

.22 cal 14.5g CPs go 376 fps on 3 pumps, 455 fps on 6 pumps, and 629 fps on 10 pumps.

[K.O.]

When I saw that one I had a real hard time passing it up but Christmas  and a couple birthdays were coming up  plus I really wanted to do a .25 pumper.

It was well worth the 200$ that was asked, heck just a replacement walnut stock is about 65$

I am glad it is with you, when you first showed it here I did not regret passing on it as much. The last time I had a 2200 was in the early 80s

Yours and the first gens are the best.

It would seem that he did not go all out when adding volume because even when offset by headspace reduction it would show at the lower pumps.




Seeing the figures on it helps me keep a bit of my confidence.

On my project what I am doing is basically taking a tuned 2200 like yours adding 1/3 more to the valve volume and porting the  heck out of it in

order to get it to send 18.1g .22  pellets down range  at 12-15 pumps at the same fps.

[Ryan]

Hi BDS,

How did you install a 2260 barrel into a typical 2200/2100 clam-shell action? You pretty well have to gut the 2200 internals in order to hide a chopped-up Crosman steel or plastic breech inside the clam-shell, right?

[1377x]

A 1377 valve can be nodded to fit/work in a 2100 as long as its flat topped. Looks easier than what the guy on its did. I have the plans to do the mod

[Ryan]

1377x,
You mind elaborating on your grand scheme of things? I have read somewhere that half of a 1377 valve is matted to a 2100 or 760 half to make it more potent.

[K.O.]

A 1377 valve can be nodded to fit/work in a 2100 as long as its flat topped. Looks easier than what the guy on its did. I have the plans to do the mod

yep but you would have to shorten it or the pump stroke by about .410-.420 or so I think

Is there much meat left betwee the valve face and check poppet seat?

this is assuming the flat top is machined just behind where the bolt hole is?

[K.O.]

1377x,
You mind elaborating on your grand scheme of things? I have read somewhere that half of a 1377 valve is matted to a 2100 or 760 half to make it more potent.

Link?